Jax Wren - The Heated Rivalry Episode
Michelle catches up with consent educator and DC Cuddle Club founder Jax Wren for a free-ranging conversation that somehow covers all the bases: from Michelle's red carpet debut at the GAYVNs and a memorable sex experiment with a gay friend, to a deep-dive into the HBO show Heated Rivalry and what it unexpectedly teaches about the Wheel of Consent. The centerpiece is a gorgeous breakdown of the "listening turn" practice -- and why one scene in Episode 5 is the most perfect real-world demonstration of it you'll ever see on television. Plus: AVN aftercare products, neurodivergence and communication styles, asking for what you want in relationships, and why your micro world matters more than ever right now.
Links mentioned in this episode:
The Heated Rivarly clip: https://youtu.be/ueoxEiqqwG0?si=hw2DCtUHUY9MVZL-
Betty Martin: https://www.wheelofconsent.org/about
https://fan.adultentertainmentexpo.com/
Heated Rivalry on HBO: https://www.hbomax.com/shows/heated-rivalry/50cd4e99-04ee-427b-a3b4-da721ed05d9c
Bios:
Jax Wren (she/her) is a consent and intimacy educator, coach, and companion based in the DMV/Northeast Corridor. Her work spans erotic touch, erotic coaching, and platonic touch and cuddling. She is the founder of DC Cuddle Club, with affiliates in Atlanta and LA, and is a certified Wheel of Consent facilitator who teaches Like a Pro workshops across the country.
Find Jax:
Website: https://touchbyjax.com
DC Cuddle Club: https://dccuddleclubs.com
Instagram & Facebook: @touchedbyjax
Michelle Renee (she/her) is a therapeutic intimacy specialist, trained as both a Cuddle Therapist and Surrogate Partner, and a co-owner at https://Cuddlist.com. She practices a trauma-informed, consent-based approach that helps folks of all genders rebuild trust with touch, set clear boundaries, and access authentic pleasure ... at their own pace. She serves clients nationwide as a holistic intimacy coach and partners with therapists to integrate somatic, consent-based healing. Michelle's websites are https://meetmichellerenee.com and https://humanconnectionlab.com and she can be found on social media at https://instagram.com/meetmichellerenee.
If you’d like to ask a question for Michelle to answer on an episode, or you’d like to join her for an Intimacy Lab Experience, visit https://intimacylabpodcast.com.
To grab your own set of We’re Not Really Strangers https://amzn.to/47XJjvm
Become a Cuddlist Certified Touch Practitioner and save 10%: https://cuddlist.com use code MEETMICHELLERENEE
Rough Transcript:
Michelle Renee (00:22)
Welcome back to the Intimacy Lab. I'm Michelle Renne, and today I get to introduce you all to my friend and colleague, Jax. Jax, you want to give everybody an intro as to kind of who you are, where you fall in the world, and why on earth, why might we be excited to talk to each other today?
Jax (00:39)
sure. I'm Jax. She her. I am located in the DMV area or I mean really like the northeast corridor if needed if need be. ⁓ I am a consent and intimacy educator, coach and companion. ⁓ Included in that is ⁓ erotic touch, erotic coaching and platonic touch and cuddling. ⁓ And we know each other from
from all of those circles of people who do, I also am a little content facilitator. ⁓ Yeah, so we know each other from all of those intimacy, professional circles, and conferences, and connected relationships.
Michelle Renee (01:29)
Yeah, I think we met at a conference, right? And like, I don't know what year it was, 22, 23?
Jax (01:38)
Somewhere around then.
Michelle Renee (01:39)
Yeah. You were doing cool shit in DC.
Jax (01:41)
Yeah.
Oh yeah, I'm the founder of DC Cuddle Club. I'm never good at these. I used to be good when I could like condense it, but I'm the founder of DC Cuddle Club, which also has affiliates in Atlanta and LA. And I think that's probably was like the main thing I was doing then.
Michelle Renee (01:50)
Yeah.
Mm I think so. Yeah. And I was like super like cool. You're you're like combining kink and in cuddling and ⁓ both two of my loves. So that was that was fun. I love the sex ed world. And that's what it was. Gosh, what was it called? sexologist.
Jax (02:11)
Yeah.
Thank
Sexology Summit?
Sexology Summit.
Michelle Renee (02:24)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jax (02:26)
Reba, Reba put that on. That was a good time. I met a lot of people that weekend. I love like convenings like that because they're either the first time I'm a lot of people or it's a reunion. So there's some conferences I go to and it's a reunion and it's sometimes where I'm meeting a bunch of new, I guess each one is both. I just did creating change this weekend, which was both. I've met a lot of new people and I saw a lot of people like reunion style.
Michelle Renee (02:27)
Yeah, it was good.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I imagine
I remember having a lot of friends when I lived in Michigan that would go to creating change. ⁓ I just got back from the AVN Adult Entertainment Expo.
Jax (03:03)
I saw you walk on a red carpet.
Michelle Renee (03:05)
I walked to the red carpet for the GAYVNs which for those at home that don't know, that's like the awards for mainly gay male performers. It's such a, they put them all together. But like my understanding is like, there were some trans performers that were at the AVN It's interesting. I was like, is this going to be a full queer show or is it just gay male? And like, it seemed like it was just gay male, but it was an experience just.
Jax (03:15)
curious.
Hmm.
Michelle Renee (03:33)
hanging out the whole weekend with ⁓ Alex who, I don't know, I say he has 12 plus descriptors in my world. I don't even know what to call him. He's like, I don't, the innermost rings of the tree, right? He's right in that center, hearty, juicy middle of it. ⁓ But he is ⁓ a coach and he has a kink podcast that is also educational porn. So it's like,
Jax (03:41)
Hahaha
Michelle Renee (04:02)
We did episode one together. ⁓ I was so bummed when the other the performer on that episode did not want to be on Pornhub. And so my episode is not on Pornhub, but I was like, I'm going to be on Pornhub. This is amazing. I'm not on Pornhub yet. We're going to do another episode. I come in as an educator. And so so it's like the way he does the podcast is it's like an education around a specific kink.
Jax (04:30)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (04:31)
So they have somebody come in, like kind of like a phone a friend and help set the scene and help prepare Alex for the scene. And then ⁓ they have the negotiations. have on the podcast that's easily accessible and free. You have the negotiations and you have the aftercare. The juicy middle is only available through, you know,
Jax (04:54)
Mmm.
Michelle Renee (05:00)
Pornhub is the current space for it. I think he calls it education you can get off to. Yeah.
Jax (05:08)
I like it.
I love that. heard of a couple people that do things similar. like, I love any opportunity to like show because, you know, we love to say as educators, love to say like porn is not education and a lot of people are being educated through porn. So like those opportunities to like marry though, too. There's a there's somebody I met, I think at that same summit that I met you at that does something similar in Europe. I know King and Jasmine sometimes they like do they they film like they're like
Michelle Renee (05:13)
So he's a performer. Yeah.
Mm-hmm, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Jax (05:41)
pre-negotiations ahead. I just love that because then you can get it in one space.
Michelle Renee (05:44)
It makes it more real. ⁓
Interesting with him is that, so because he was a performer, he got to have access to, we went as helping out with an exhibitor table called Dr. Tush and it's an aftercare product that
is all over the body, they, you know, they badge it in separate containers for like anal play, know, vulva play, nipple play, right? But it's really all the same product. And then they, yes.
Jax (06:18)
recently, so I teach classes at Lotus Blooms sometimes and I taught a strap-on play class and they carry it and I was asking, I was like, what's the difference in the different ones? But like the active ingredient is the same. I very very recently was made familiar with this.
Michelle Renee (06:22)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
⁓
It's, yeah, I sold it all weekend, right? And
it's like, what was so interesting. So for those at home, maybe I'll put up a promo code by the time this thing goes out. ⁓ It is primarily a hydrogel, which is used in hospitals for burn recovery, skin repair, things like that, plus a little bit of peppermint just for a little bit of cooling and antibacterial properties. And you can use it anywhere on your body.
Jax (06:39)
you
Michelle Renee (06:57)
Right. So I was sitting there and putting it on my hangnails. Like, could I heal up this skin right here? Right. It can be used anywhere. And then they have a product that's for that's badged either as kink or spank. Same base product, but they add Arnica and a little vitamin E. So to us kinksters, we're like, Arnica, yeah, we know all about that. Right. So what was interesting about sitting there and selling a product?
Jax (07:02)
No, no.
Michelle Renee (07:24)
Um, to vendors. And then there was also some, um, fans that came into our space because we were in this like mixed use space. Um, the amount of performers that came in and raved about how much they loved it. I was like, if anybody knows what's effective for overuse.
it's going to be a porn performer, right? Like, yeah. So that's how I got in. And then with Alex having credentials as also being a performer, we got to go into the model's lounge. Well, he basically brought me in with him and we did some time in there. He had a ⁓ shift with Pineapple Support.
in there supporting the models and then, which is a space that's dedicated to the fans, you they can get away from the general population there. They serve food and water and all that kind of just caretaky stuff. And then, so because of that, we got to get into the GAYVN So we got to walk the red carpet. We'll never do it again. It was such a long wait. But what was kind of really yummy about it was all of these most primarily
Jax (08:20)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (08:41)
primarily cis men, there was this, well, first of all, I was invisible because I was around gay men all weekend. And it's a little bit of a break. kind of, it's nice and it's weird. It's, you miss getting a little bit of attention at some point, because if Alex wasn't introducing to me, I'm pretty sure they would have never even asked me my name in a lot of those spaces, that's been my experience. But they've either worked together.
Jax (08:49)
you
Michelle Renee (09:09)
or in some way they know each other. So there's this flirtation. It's like thick soup in the air of like, we should collab or hey, it's great to see you again. And I was like, yeah, I just like I wouldn't that's gonna be my new pickup line for like, we should hook up. I mean, we should collab. ⁓ We should collab. And it was juicy. It felt really good just to be in that energy even though it wasn't and kind of nice that it wasn't directed at me in some ways. But like I will say I finally found
Jax (09:11)
and
We should collab.
We should come out.
Michelle Renee (09:38)
one straight man to give me some attention at some point in the weekend because I was like this is I didn't go looking for him it just happened but he he was really lovely and we we chatted each other up for a little bit but I did fall in love with a bi man who knew all the vulva anatomy
Jax (09:54)
That's any.
It's a great way to go.
Michelle Renee (09:59)
I'm like, leave it to the by guys.
anyways, I he's gonna come on into an episode with me. He's a performer. Well, I'm sure it'll come up. That's I mean, that's how he caught me. Like, he started out as my favorite person of the day, because we were just talking about my I did a sex experiment with Alex, because he wanted to know what it's like to have sex with a woman. And I was like, I volunteer. Part of that was teaching him about my anatomy.
Jax (10:06)
about the global anatomy?
Hahaha!
Michelle Renee (10:27)
And when we were talking about that with this table of gay men, this ⁓ Chad Rex was there and he just jumped in with all the anatomy. And I was like, be still my heart, sir.
Jax (10:43)
I feel.
Like that, that is a service I could get behind. Like, I would say you've never, like you are sexually experienced and you want to like make sure, or like you want to try this out one day. I feel like that's a service I can get by.
Michelle Renee (11:04)
Well, the funny thing is, that actually Alex just posted a video about this yesterday is like how gay men really critique straight men for not trying. Right. How do know if you haven't tried kind of, you know, ooh, like why are you so stuck on just only being with women kind of attitude? And he's like, we do the exact same thing. We do the exact same thing. He's like, all it did be having this experience with Michelle.
Jax (11:16)
Mmm.
Michelle Renee (11:33)
was A, I had a good time and I really understood my orientation better. Like he understands what the difference between having sex with someone that you're oriented towards versus having sex with someone that you're not, which for me as an asexual, it was so validating that he was able to mirror that experience with me. And it makes her extra complications. I'm used to somebody that I like sex. I like the idea of having sex.
Jax (11:53)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (12:03)
do I need to have it with this one specific person in a curiosity way maybe, but not in like what I deem to be necessarily sexual attraction. I'm attracted to them for lots of different reasons. And in that I like you, one of the activities I might like to do with you might be sexy. Right. And so for us, it was just really interesting. And I love to have, I love how he's bringing that kind of, what would happen if you just
stepped outside of your norm and took, like was curious. So that's the name of his podcast too is Kink Curious. So it works.
Jax (12:45)
curious.
Can I start being a dork right now?
Michelle Renee (12:51)
We haven't even got to the dork part, but yes, please bring the dork.
Jax (12:56)
It's the same with it's spoilers, I guess. It's the same experience when like Shane is like trying to have sex with Rose and he's like, yeah, this is fine. I'll do it. And I was listening to, think, gay men, podcasters or something on Instagram say it was like, we get to experience what it's like to like be fulfilled and be attracted in this and like know that like, yeah, I tried this thing and it's not working for me, but this is like my thing.
Michelle Renee (13:23)
Mm-hmm.
Mm hmm. Yeah. So yeah, so by the way, the reason that Jax here is because we're gonna we're gonna geek out over heated rivalry. So if you don't want any spoilers, Tata for now, come back when you've watched the show. Mm hmm. Yeah, watch it and come back. ⁓
Jax (13:27)
And how do you know?
Watch it and then come back.
Michelle Renee (13:50)
I know your way. I I liked it and I finished it just so we could have this conversation. I made sure that I got it finished. I was watching it with Alex. It was a committed relationship. I didn't want to cheat on him. We finished the show and now I'm finishing it with my husband because we were all three watching it together. He was out of town and so I'm finishing it with him. He still has one episode to go but loves it.
Jax (14:03)
Yeah
Mm-hmm.
am not in possession of the willpower to have finished episode five and be able to pause there if I have access to episode six. Like on a first watch, I can't imagine that kind of willpower. And this is why.
Michelle Renee (14:34)
Yeah.
Yeah, but he doesn't get into
that kind of stuff. Like he, I think he really started watching it only because me and Alex were watching it. And like the idea of not laying in bed with us was more of a FOMO situation. I think he wanted it is cute. I'd go out and get snacks and I come back in and he'd be all curled up, cuddled up with Alex is very sweet. I have my own little, you know, game, gay romance happening in my bed and I'm not mad about it.
Jax (14:52)
Aww.
you
That sounds
like the best way to watch this show.
Michelle Renee (15:08)
There was a point the second time we got together to watch it, all three of us, there was a point where I was like, whoa, that was hot. Should we just like pause and like get that second round three way? Like we've the original sex experiment was a three way. And I was like, we've been saying we should do a second, a second coming, you know. And ⁓ there was that moment I was like, this is kind of a little precursor.
Jax (15:21)
It's.
Hahaha
And there's someone I was friends with at some point. They were like, I'll try anything three times. I really kind of believe in that.
Michelle Renee (15:48)
Yeah, think that was a, there's an old actress that was kind of her, she was kind of known for saying something like that. I can't think of her name, but I used to say it a lot. I want to, the first time is the first time. You just don't know. I did it with, I didn't do three times. I did do two times. went to, have you ever been to a float spa?
Jax (16:02)
Thank
I did. I can't remember if I actually floated though. I was there like in some, you know, me. I ended up supporting in some way. So I was there for, was like a floating sound bath at, is that what you mean? Or like, you mean like one of those float chambers? No, I have not done that.
Michelle Renee (16:27)
Yeah, the float chambers, but
well, I don't really like water. not a I love being next to it. You'll find me at the beach, not in the water unless I have to pee. That's what I say is I only go in as far as I need to go into pee is because I'm at Blacks. It's a nude beach here. They have a lot of stingrays there. And I just the last thing I want is to get stung and still have to figure out how to get my way out of this very hard to get to beach.
It's a huge hike. I just, the thought of doing that with a stingray sting is like not on my bingo card. And so I literally, it's a nude beach. And I, and I joke about this. I literally just stand in the water, water at my ankles. I don't fucking care. And I'll just pee. And like, I know there's some dude probably jerking off to it on the beach. And I just, I can't care. If I was going to hide that I was peeing.
Jax (16:56)
Mm-hmm.
You
It's good for them.
Michelle Renee (17:25)
then I'd have to take a risk. And I just don't feel like that's where my risk taking is at these days. yeah.
Jax (17:36)
I like how, can you just stand and pee anywhere then?
Michelle Renee (17:41)
No, I'm afraid that the like I do I do think that like the lifeguards could get me for some kind of indecency. It's such a weird differentiation. Because it's not like okay, so I'm peeing it's literally just running down my leg. Right? Are they going to prove it? I don't know. You know, it's a little more conspicuous.
Jax (17:50)
Thank
Yeah.
having
a medical emergency.
Michelle Renee (18:02)
you
Jax (18:04)
I don't know.
Michelle Renee (18:05)
Well, I'd say I mean, Sara would do it at a public regular beach. She would have like a sundress on my friend Sara. just I love her to death. And she surprises me all the time. So we're sitting at the regular beach and she goes I have to pee and she's like squatting and I was like, okay, I think and she's gonna get up and go to bathroom. No, she literally just squats and peas or sundress is kind of covering the area and I'm just like
Who does this?
Jax (18:33)
A friend taught me, and this was, ⁓ we were all at a retreat or workshop or something together at her house in Costa Rica. And she was like, if you want to go to the grass and do a starfish pee. So at one point,
I don't know if it was me or someone else. was like, we can all starfish pee together. So we're standing there. I don't know why our arms are in the air, our arms are in the air, legs are apart. We're just peeing in the wind. And it's lovely. It's lovely.
Michelle Renee (19:05)
I peed outside all the time as a kid. grew up in the country. had my body was trained that the minute I got off the bus, I needed to pee and I had to get dropped off at the top of a hill because our house was on the side of a hill. We lived on a big farm. So we had a trail that went from the top of the hill and wandered down and around to our house. We didn't have to walk on the road. And every time I got out of the line of sight of the road, I would stop and pee or I wouldn't make it home.
So like peeing as a kid on a farm is just rites of passage. So it's a little something to get over the idea that people are watching you. Some people have some pee ⁓ shyness.
Jax (19:46)
Hmm.
Michelle Renee (19:48)
My husband can't stand me even peeing with the door open. Yeah, he's like, could you shut the door? And I was like, do you shut the... I'm like, I go, do you always shut the door? He goes, yes. And I go, even when nobody's home? And he's like, yeah. And I'm like, you're weird.
Jax (19:53)
Really?
Really? I nearly never do.
Unless I'm like in a public place and that's where you're like you handle
Michelle Renee (20:10)
I'd rather not. So
so fun story is I'm seeing a couple different guys who we all end up we all pee in front of each other. Like, and I said, I always come home and rub it in Paul's face. I'm like, haha, so so and so he doesn't care if I pee with the door open. And I go, Good thing we have an open relationship. He goes, it's an open door relationship. And I was like, there you go.
Jax (20:33)
Hahaha.
My with all of my friends is open door peeing. I think about the friends whose homes I spend the most time at and then when my friends are here. Rarely is my door closed when I pee. Not for peeing. Right. And I think about particularly one of my friends. There's usually a group of us there at any given moment. So someone's in the shower, someone's doing makeup, someone's just hanging out chatting with us and someone is peeing.
Michelle Renee (20:39)
Yeah.
I mean, are you going to stop a conversation just to go pee?
Yeah.
Jax (21:03)
Most of the time. I feel like we spent a lot of time in our bathroom.
Michelle Renee (21:05)
Yeah. Yeah.
No, I think that's like, I think typical. I think that's more typical, but maybe it's just the people that I like to hang out with.
Jax (21:18)
I'm also probably more naked with my friends than a lot of people, so... That maybe that has a bearing on it.
Michelle Renee (21:20)
Same. Absolutely.
Yeah.
Jax (21:30)
Maybe?
Michelle Renee (21:30)
I think it pro I don't know. mean, I don't think I grew up in a house where we shut the door when we peed. But I don't I can't really say for sure.
Jax (21:42)
I think we did. Yeah. I think, I think the door was closed when I peed when I was crying. I'm a poop in private kind of person. I won't. There's, there's one person I, two people I think I've pooped in front of. And I remember like I had a live in partner at some point and they were like upset because I had pooped in front of someone else. And I was like, no, I won't. won't.
Michelle Renee (21:46)
I wanna poop in private. Yeah.
Jax (22:09)
I'm not going to poop in front of you. I don't want that. I don't want that. ⁓
Michelle Renee (22:15)
The levels of intimacy,
right?
Jax (22:18)
Yeah, I don't want that.
Michelle Renee (22:20)
It's too I think there's
some intimacy that is hurtful potentially like you get too comfortable in front of people sometimes like yeah, I think I I don't remember if I pooped in front of my first husband, but I definitely wiped and I remember he gave me he teased me about it but I had a big old booty. I had a
Jax (22:30)
Mm-hmm.
about wiping?
Michelle Renee (22:43)
big butt to get around and he would make fun of the contorted facial expressions I would have while I was reaching for it. And I was like, get out. I just can't. So I'm like, ⁓ I'm shy because of that probably more than anything else.
Jax (23:00)
Yeah, I just...
Yeah, not in that context. I also feel like, mean, poop is poop and like butts are butts and like there's things that happen with butts not related to poop that sometimes can involve poop and sitting and pooping in the room alone is my right.
Michelle Renee (23:17)
Yeah.
Yeah, no, I'm totally I am not moving on that boundary. There's no no ask is high enough for that one for me. I will do I'm a I'm a GGG girl, but like good giving and gave but not for that. ⁓ Okay. Well, we just there's so much I can talk to you about and I'm just like, I just saw you what we just had coffee for hours not that long ago. So
Jax (23:36)
Hehehehehe
I know!
Like
two weeks ago? Three weeks ago? I don't know.
Michelle Renee (23:52)
More than that, but not much. Yeah,
probably three, but.
Jax (23:57)
You know how time has been passing over in this part.
Michelle Renee (24:01)
Well, you've been iced in. That's a terrible word to use right now. You have been...
Jax (24:03)
I have an ice fan.
I've been iced in with my hockey boys and saying fuck ice anytime I'm leaving the house.
Michelle Renee (24:09)
Yeah, we've all-
All that you have
like ice coming at you in all directions lately. Some of it's good. Some of it's bad.
Jax (24:18)
I
Yeah, some of it's really, really bad and some of it's really, really lovely.
Michelle Renee (24:23)
Yes,
thank God for the little bit of ⁓ reclamation of ice in the hockey world. I don't know. Okay, so I know we're here to talk about a specific scene.
Jax (24:33)
Yes.
Yes. ⁓
Michelle Renee (24:43)
That was your ask to me when we were sitting at coffee. You're like, my God, I need to talk about this. need to talk about this. We talked about what platforms you could use. And then you're like, you have a podcast. And I was like, yes, we can talk about it here. Absolutely. So how do we want to set this up?
Jax (24:45)
Yes.
I'm
Yes.
Do you want to go straight to the scene? I am curious since you finished it, since I spoke to you, so I'm curious about how you feel about it. I'm curious about consent in it overall and like relationally. And there's a one specific thing that I'm like, no one else. I mean, no one, I don't know who else would be saying this, but like it's the Russian, it's the Russian ⁓ listening turn that happens in episode five that like.
Michelle Renee (25:32)
I mean, I was watching for it because you had pointed it out, but. So I wasn't I was only at episode I finished episode three when I had seen you, so I had not seen it yet. I was just telling Keeley about it because I was telling Keeley that I was coming on to talk to you and this was our primary purpose and just even explaining it to her. I go, I just got goosebumps. Because it's so.
Jax (25:36)
⁓ you hadn't seen it yet, that part.
Michelle Renee (26:01)
Well, A, it just I would like to start there because I feel like we're going to confuse people if we bounce around too much. Let's start with let's explain what a listening turn is.
Jax (26:08)
Yes.
Absolutely. So, ⁓ I'm ⁓ a part of my work is Wheel of Consent facilitation and a ⁓ practice that I do with colleagues like me and and friends at this point will call each other and have listening turns. A practice that we teach in the Wheel of Consent workshop or like a pro workshops is listening turns and essentially what it is, well, the Wheel of Consent.
and probably I'm assuming some of your listeners have heard this, but a little consent is the framework created by Dr. Betty Martin. A framework created by Dr. Betty Martin and it takes ⁓ consent and it breaks it into four quadrants and the most important thing that it's doing is often in interactions and relational interactions a person is doing a thing to another person and a person is having it done.
a thing done to them. And ⁓ so that's one side of it, but it adds the additional context of saying who it's for. And we practice that in all kinds of ways and we put it together and it's really something that you feel somatically through practice, yada, yada, yada. And one of the very early practices that we do are listening turns. And it's a way for folks to really feel into like when something is for me.
And so a listening turn is one person that's typically done in pairs. One person has the time, the space ⁓ to receive the gift of someone else's attention. And so there's a person who is taking their listening turn and they get to take however much time it is, like typically is time bound by like five minutes or three minutes or 15 minutes, depending on how what's needed or.
for the container that it presents itself. And that person is not in conversation with the other person, but they are receiving the gift of someone else's attention. So that other person isn't there to respond or to solve a problem or to be entertained. That person is there to witness and to hold space, if you will. And typically with the caveat that
But I'm not gonna later come back and poke and prod about these things. And not going to ⁓ insert myself in any way where, to infringe upon my ability to take this time from me.
And oftentimes when we are facilitating it, people are like, I loved it. I love learning about this person. like, ⁓ they are feeling like I get to hear all of this stuff about someone that I maybe don't know or someone that I do know and I love. And it can often feel like, this felt like it was for me. And so the way that we frame that to help you really know it's for you ⁓ is the person who, when they're done speaking, they say,
thank you to the person who was giving the gift of their attention and the person who was given their attention by silently being there will say you're welcome. And that's a tricky part. Like that's where the person's like, ⁓ like we, cause we all want to say, no, thank you. But no, it's really like built into the practice that like you took this time for you. So you might be talking about a specific thing that's on your mind. You might be sitting quietly and you might.
Sometimes, and this is an example that we give, a way if you have a hard time not performing or not, like pulling in the other person so you're trying to engage them a certain way, a great way to take your listening turn is to do it in another language.
Michelle Renee (30:05)
Mm-hmm.
Jax (30:07)
And so.
Michelle Renee (30:08)
So we have the perfect example, which I can only imagine. I'm going
to be at Like a Pro in Chicago with you in April. And I'm just curious if we'll end up with a clip of this as part of the workshop, because it does help you understand it in a very... ⁓
Jax (30:17)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (30:34)
It's different when you can't understand what the person is saying. You are really just a vessel to let them talk to. And it was beautiful. It was beautiful. ⁓ So let's set the scene. I don't think I can get a clip to insert in here. If I can, I will totally do it. like.
Jax (30:45)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (31:05)
Do you want me to like lay out the lead up to this as easily as possible?
Jax (31:10)
I think we need to say like what is it? Have we said like, have we actually said heat at rivalry? Okay.
Michelle Renee (31:15)
We have not described, we have said Heated Rivalry. Heated
Rivalry is a show on HBO about... Okay, I'm not familiar. if that's...
Jax (31:23)
Created by Clave.
Because if people get
upset, I've spent way too much time. HBO did not create this show. It's a Canadian created show. HBO picked it up. That's all I...
Michelle Renee (31:34)
Right? No. Yep. Yes.
Yes. But you will find it on HBO. It is ⁓ a story about ⁓ some gay hockey players. A few different stories are told intertwined or in purpose of getting to the end. I say that it's like it's interesting to bring it all together at the end. ⁓
Jax (31:41)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (32:00)
But at this time of the story, there's no out hockey players. Surely there are plenty of gay hockey players because gay people have been around forever. They just haven't always been out of the shadows. And so you get this story of over many, years, you've watched it enough times that you've done the math. How many years is it over?
Jax (32:22)
It starts in 2008,
it ends in 2017.
Michelle Renee (32:26)
No, doesn't it end even later than 2017? Okay, okay.
Jax (32:28)
2017.
Where we are in this story now is in 2017.
Michelle Renee (32:34)
Okay,
okay. And it's just a story of primarily two people's ⁓ kind of very slow, slow love affair. And intertwined with another story that helps the whole thing come together at the end. And I don't know what the books are like. And it's so interesting. I was back home in Michigan, seeing my kids at Christmas and my daughter-in-law writes queer romance.
Jax (33:03)
oooo
Michelle Renee (33:04)
Yes, she has a pen name and everything. Her first book is out. And she said to me, I'm so excited because one of my favorite book series got made into a television show and it's so good. And I said, oh, what's that? She goes, heated rivalry. And I go, oh, my God, I'm watching it too. Right. And I didn't and I go, their books. And she's like, yes, and like showed me. So I have them on my audible that I might.
eventually try. I'm really, I really love reading for information, but I'm so curious to see how things compare. I'm sure you've read them. Okay. Okay. There's only three of them, right? I think there's only three. ⁓
Jax (33:40)
They're quick reads, they're quick listens. I've listened to three of them now. No, there's six. So there are six,
but there are two Ilya and Shane books and there's one book about ⁓ Kip and Scott. So I've listened to the first two books and then the last book, because that's the second Shane and Ilya book.
Michelle Renee (33:54)
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay, well, I'll maybe should I like if you if you're like Rita, okay. All right, because it's on audio. will I don't read with my eyeballs. So
Jax (34:11)
Hey.
with the caveat that these are not their voices and so
And I don't want like, I think this man is a lovely reader, except there are differences, right? And so Kip in the book has like a Brooklyn accent, which, and Ilya in the book has a Russian accent, but it's not that Russian accent. And then there's a different reader for the last book. And that one sounds like group. Like, think, so the fans are really pushing for them to record it. Now, if you,
Michelle Renee (34:33)
Yeah.
I wonder if it... yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I wonder if they'll re- I wonder if they'll ever redo them.
Jax (34:58)
This is what happens. And this is the last thing I'll say. If you want to hear our boys read something, Quinn, is an audio erotica app, they have ⁓ an original series in three parts that the boys read. And it's called Ember and Ice. It's about two.
Michelle Renee (35:07)
Mm-hmm.
Go.
Jax (35:24)
fae prince, princes that are in love? Very, very similar. Thanks.
Michelle Renee (35:29)
Hmm. I tried Quinn.
I really didn't get into it. I'm always trying to figure out what is the thing that will turn me on because that's half my battle is like I'm incredibly responsive desire. I have to find arousal and it is so difficult. And I love I have I've recorded like audio recorded sex between me and my partner. And I have found that to be incredibly hot.
And I thought maybe listening to stories and stuff would also do that for me. I think I also have aphantasia. I don't see pictures. So listening to a story doesn't create a storyboard for me.
Jax (36:09)
There's lots of sounds in this one. So it would be more similar to their story and then there's action happening that has sounds. So it would be more of a mix of a story and like partner recorded play, I would think.
Michelle Renee (36:16)
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah,
okay. I mean, maybe I'll pop back on and check it out out of curiosity, especially if I'm traveling and lonely and bored, which sometimes happens. Sometimes I'm not lonely. Who knows? Okay, so where were we? this listening session, so the story gets to a point where ⁓ I'm so bad with names. Why don't you tell this part?
Jax (36:35)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Okay, so
our main characters are Shane, who is a Canadian hockey player, very top of his game, and Ilya, who is a Russian player who plays for an American team, a US team. ⁓ The team that I'm wearing, he plays for the Boston Raiders. ⁓ Such a dork. And so ⁓
Michelle Renee (37:03)
the team that you're wearing right now.
Can't let that go. Can't let that go.
Jax (37:16)
They spend the first part of their situationship really squarely in a situationship where there's definitely like a lot of sexual chemistry. These boys are closeted. These boys are closeted to the point where for one, the Russian, it's dangerous. He is bisexual, but ⁓ his connections that still remain to Russia make it.
Michelle Renee (37:23)
Mm-hmm.
Jax (37:43)
dangerous politically and otherwise for him to come out. And for the other, our sweet baby Shane, I think he's just figuring out he's very much an Ilya-sexual in that he's really, he's in the closet, but I think he's still somewhat in the closet to himself eight years into this love affair.
Michelle Renee (38:02)
Well, there's that
moment where he goes, I have to tell you something. I'm gay.
Jax (38:06)
You
Michelle Renee (38:10)
Have you heard? I mean, what are your thoughts about about Shane being autistic?
Jax (38:10)
What?
I think it's very coded. so the really beautiful thing is the actor who plays Shane, his father is autistic. ⁓ And I think I've read where Rachel, the writer, that was not her intention, but once she got that feedback, she was like, yeah, this makes sense. So she wrote it that way. And it's interpreted. And I think it's really lovely.
Michelle Renee (38:27)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Jax (38:45)
I think where I, and I've seen a lot of folks who are neurodivergent ⁓ and autistic, on autism spectrum who've said like they really love this. I always get, ⁓ I always like the caveat that like that's not how all autistic people are gonna show up. And that's several folks that I have dealt with or know. And sometimes I feel like I've shown up. I see myself in both characters a lot. ⁓ And so I think it's a really lovely interpretation of
Michelle Renee (38:59)
No.
Jax (39:15)
Yes, ⁓ the autism spectrum and yes, just like the spectrum of how it is we show up and communicate and feel comfortable in a personal relations period. ⁓ You have one actor or one character who has all of this baggage from his life and like.
is lacking all of these interpersonal love and support from family. And then you have this other person who has this more like an internal struggle of how to communicate, but who's surrounded by love and family and how that makes it so impossible for them to communicate with each other at their baseline. And they have to figure out what that is over time as they are drawn to each other in ways where...
They can't deny the fact that they're in love with each other and they're gonna have to communicate in order to get to where they need to be to be happy.
Michelle Renee (40:12)
I know we're taking the ADHD route to getting to this story. I want to acknowledge that. Because now I want to stay off of that. Do you think, so I noticed there was a mixed feeling in me with Shane. There was a feeling of, is that internalized homophobia? There's a lot of shame that I feel like I'm seeing show up in some of those after sex moments. We have that post-nut clarity or whatever you want to refer to it as.
Jax (40:17)
Yes.
Michelle Renee (40:42)
But then I'm also, yeah, but also like I'm also thinking about that moment in the elevator where he starts to type a message of like, didn't even, we never even kissed or whatever the message was there. And then I'm like, okay, so am I reading it, am I reading it wrong? Is it not shame or is it more confusion as to what is happening here because it's so disjointed?
Jax (40:42)
I post that confusion for our boy too.
pretty squarely read it in confusion. ⁓
much more than shame. And now that the shame doesn't exist. I, the way I read, so I've listened to the book and I've, and I've watched the show now. And so specifically in the realm of the show, the way that I see Shane is that I don't think he's spent much time thinking about his sexuality. I think he's only spent time thinking about
who and how he wants to show up in the world in the context of the things that he's good at. And I think there's lots of, if I think about a life where like I wasn't seeking out pleasure or people that I'm interested in because I had not come across people I was interested in or brought me pleasure, how my gauge for what's supposed to happen might largely be.
dictated by the one object of my affection. And so when I think about how sweet and lovely Ilya can be to Shane in some moments and how at different moments, I think Ilya both is guarded, is worried about all of the things that it would mean for him to show up and be in love with this man and
Michelle Renee (42:14)
Yeah.
Jax (42:37)
not for nothing in the ways in which he realizes he can and can't open up to Shane. think Shane is not ⁓ without fault in Ilya's inability to speak to him because the time where he does bring up like, ⁓ like family for me is not the same family that is like bringing you joy and sunshine and you're not understanding this. So maybe I can't lay this at your feet because I don't think you can handle it. And so I think the way that Ilya deals with Shane
Michelle Renee (43:02)
Yeah.
Jax (43:06)
is he's measuring what he's giving to this boy at any given moment. And Shane doesn't have anything else to go off. Like you gave me the most beautiful first sexual experience of my life. And the next time it was like very like kinky, like emotionally separated. And so that would confuse the fuck out of me if I don't have any other context for how this is supposed to be.
Michelle Renee (43:10)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
to student.
Jax (44:21)
When I go back to thinking about the times that Shane's like, ⁓ like, gotta go or we can't do this. I think because he doesn't have con. So, yes, there's some homophobia in there, but it's also confusion as like you never. I came into this kind of like taking your lead and you never actually gave me the rule, the rules and the roadmap for what we're doing and what's allowed and what's not. And for where he sits, what feels like.
this is me opening up or this is like, I like you from the ways that I can show it. It feels like that part's not allowed. So it's confusing me when you're making me sandwiches and being very sweet to me. I don't know how to deal with this.
Michelle Renee (45:00)
Well, especially if
you don't know how to read between the lines, right? I'm just thinking about autistic characteristics or just some neurodivergence. I've been diagnosed with ADHD. don't feel like when I read some about ADHD, I don't resonate with it. When I read some about AuDHD I'm all over it. So I'm going to just say I'm AuDHD. I totally get... I think I do...
Jax (45:09)
Yeah.
Thank
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (45:30)
We just had the company meeting the other day. Somebody makes a joke and I don't take it as I don't realize it's a joke and I'm confused and it doesn't make sense to me. I'm like, I don't. And they're like, it's a joke, Michelle. And I'm like, ⁓ it's that thing with my brain. Right. Like, you know, and and I had the pleasure of meeting a really adorable ⁓ by gentlemen at the AVN thing. And one of the things like there there came a point where I was like, Alex,
Jax (45:42)
Yeah
Michelle Renee (46:00)
I would not be mad if we ended up in a three way with him. Like at all, not mad. This would be like late birthday gift to Michelle. And he goes, well, he told me that he is really bad at reading between the lines and people should be really direct with him. Should I send him a text message? I said, yes.
Jax (46:10)
You
Michelle Renee (46:25)
And so he wrote the text, he ran it by me. It was something like me and Michelle think it would be really fun to hook up with you. If you're interested, let us know. And he came back with like, that sounds really exciting and fun and let me see what my schedule looks like. It didn't happen, but I feel like he's going to come to San Diego. So that does not make me upset. But I love that self-awareness of like, you need to know that I don't
Jax (46:48)
Hahaha
Michelle Renee (46:54)
do well with nuance. And I just think about the ribbing that Ilya would do, which I get it. I grew up in that house. I thought for the longest time, if you weren't picking on me, you didn't like me. And if that was a similar situation, calling him boring all the time and things like that.
Jax (47:08)
Mm-hmm.
But also calling him pretty and Shane being like, no, not. What can't he say to you that you understand?
Michelle Renee (47:26)
Right. Yeah, it's it's fun to watch the the flaunt floundering a bit. Yeah, I'm glad it took a change. Now we're back to kind of I think it all kind of culminates in this listening turn.
Jax (47:33)
Yeah.
Until we get to a point, yeah. Until we get to a point, yeah.
Yeah, so after Shane's like taken control of the situation, learned that he's gay after nine years of being obsessed with the same man. And really being like nudged by a girlfriend who's like, hey, have you, I don't think it really, I don't think he spent time thinking about it until that moment. When she's like, hey, you know, there are gay people in the world, have you noticed? And maybe you're one of them.
Michelle Renee (48:12)
And I said, and I tend
to date them is basically what she says, right?
Jax (48:14)
⁓
And I think I don't, the sweet baby, I think there is a world where it had not crossed his mind. He was just trying to put this one man who was forbidden for several reasons, like not only because he's gay, but like because like it would not make sense for the way they show up in their workplace. ⁓ So.
Michelle Renee (48:35)
our tribals.
Jax (48:42)
He has both confessed to being gay. He has also like made himself a safe space for Ilya to actually open up about his feelings and like what's going on at home. And so after that happens, and it's very important too, that Ilya is not a native English speaker. so, which could be contributing to some of the communication stuff on the front end. And
Michelle Renee (48:52)
and cry.
Jax (49:12)
Shane has the most beautiful. So Ilya's father has passed away. He is in Russia. Moving through a lot of emotions also has been nudged by his friend, his female friend to say like, Hey, I think you're in love with this, with this other man. And it doesn't mean that we can't be friends and we don't love each other, but like you have your person. and so Ilya reaches out to Shane.
for comfort and something that Ilya expresses in that interaction, like he wants to share what's going on. There's so much going on that has nothing to do with their relationship. It's just, I don't have friends that I can express this way to. You have made yourself a safe space in this way. And oh, by the way, it's hard for me to express in this language. It's not my native tongue.
Michelle Renee (50:08)
Well, I'm tired. I heard like I'm tired. I don't have the energy to do this in English, which ends up I think being such a accidental bonus for him because he got to say everything he wanted to say. And not worry that it's it's not being received. It's being received energetically, but it's not being the data is not being processed.
Jax (50:13)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And yes, so Shane, sweet baby Shane goes, how about you get out everything you need to. And it doesn't like, essentially, it doesn't matter that I can't understand you, I can still be here, hold this space for you. You might feel better if you get it out of your system. With me witnessing.
And it's so good. And so much is talked about. So I think the discourse online is like, well, why wouldn't he Google translate? Because that's not the point. Why, you know, these are things that he said that he wouldn't say to Shayna otherwise. It's not the point. The point is he created the safe space for him to say these things.
Michelle Renee (51:00)
It's so good.
It would have
violated his privacy to do that. That's like if I knew that my, you know, there's been times my husband has had a therapy, a telehealth therapy session here in the house. And I have to actively work not to hear it. But that's his space. I will go out of my way to actively avoid hearing it.
Jax (51:38)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (51:46)
put on the headphones, go out for a walk, do something to not violate that. And if I was running a Google translator during this, it's not consensual.
Jax (52:03)
And when you're breaking down who's it for, like, yeah, it would be helpful for Shane, even if he presented it that way, even if it was consensual, if he presented it like, you can speak and I'll Google translate and I may have feedback or something. And that's not the gift that he offered. And it's not, and it becomes very clear that that the gift, it's so clear in this scene who the gift is for and who was given the gift.
Michelle Renee (52:06)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jax (52:29)
Shane is giving the gift of his presence, the gift of the idea in this instance. ⁓ And Ilya gets to just express. He gets to express things that he's likely never expressed to anyone. I don't think he was accessing that level of truth before. He's sharing some things that have nothing to do with Shane and have everything to do with what he really just needs to get out. He needs to like, you know.
Michelle Renee (52:31)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jax (52:58)
allowed to be voiced. And through that, he also realizes some really beautiful things about Shane that that's still not for Shane in that moment yet, because he still gets to decide when do I want to tell this man I love him? How do I want to tell him I love him? Is that appropriate? Is it safe for me to say that in English? It's safe for me to say it in this way.
Michelle Renee (53:13)
Yeah.
And he could hear it from himself in that space. I think that's like a I love that it because it wasn't a different language, it quote unquote proves the power of this, this skill, this practice, what have you want to call it. But the other thing I think about is something I bring up often. And I remember I have to remind myself this I remember being on a on a
Jax (53:25)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (53:49)
airplane listening to a podcast years and years ago. And this woman was on there talking about co-regulation. I think her theme was like, there's nothing, there's, there isn't really self-regulation. It's all co-regulation. Whether you're with someone or not with someone, you're accessing a memory no matter what. So you're co-regulating with the memory of this event or person or what have you. But the thing I really loved about it was she said,
Jax (54:00)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (54:18)
people don't need someone to tell them the answers. They have the answers. They need a safe space to be able to talk it out. And that's what we saw in that space too.
Jax (54:36)
Yeah. ⁓
I think one of the flaws I see that frustrates me in Shane's communication style throughout the whole show is that my boyfriend is in distress. This man is in distress. Is it this? Is it this? A thing that's recurring and the reason I think Ilya doesn't open up sooner is Ilya will be like, I'm going home in three days. And he goes, it must be nice.
which if you waited and gave him space, you would know that it's not going to be nice. You know, when they were talking about going to Russia, he goes, your family's probably excited like that, like leading. Your family's probably excited about it's going to be in Russia without having any context. Like that's your context. When I think he slowly, very slowly understands the complications that exists trying to be queer in Russia.
Michelle Renee (55:19)
Mm-hmm.
Jax (55:35)
But even I think even earlier in that conversation, and I know I was telling someone like, know at some point, Yuna, his mom was like, we're gonna get you in like empathy classes. This is how you like have the conversation going forward because he goes, is it very distressing? what are you talking about? It's like, well, ⁓ which I recognize and like.
Michelle Renee (55:57)
Yeah.
Jax (56:01)
ways I've seen communications being taught before, like empathetic communications. It's like, ⁓ you can offer what you think they're thinking, which is very opposite to the that I operate these days because I don't want to plant things I really want to hear. ⁓ And I think this is the first time that Ilya like, in conversation with Shane, and I think from there on, I think they have a better... ⁓
Michelle Renee (56:04)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jax (56:30)
better relationship to it. And I don't know if it's because of this thing or exactly, like it's just them lining up a little bit better. It's the first time that Shane isn't like connecting something that's going on with Ilya with Shane's understanding of the world, because they're two completely different understandings of the world. ⁓
Michelle Renee (56:50)
I think their energy just changed. you know how that happens? You hit this, there's a, maybe you can't put your finger on it, but there's something that connects you differently. And I think it's vulnerability. I think it's that, you know, the opening up, the be willing to cry and then the being willing to do that, just talking it, even though I can't understand you.
Jax (57:03)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (57:18)
that you trust me to hold this. I think that that is received. In that moment, it just changes things. There's a safety that's enforced or.
Jax (57:20)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
reinforced.
Michelle Renee (57:39)
Reinforce or solidified or strengthened maybe. Yeah.
Jax (57:44)
Proven?
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (57:50)
It's no longer a situationship. It's not vague. It's not there's like a clarity to it, even though they don't know how to move forward.
Jax (58:00)
Yeah, they're still working out the words, I think in episode and particularly in that conversation, they figure out that they're each other's people. I think when Ilya calls him in the first place, I think that's where they know, because...
They, that's not a thing that they were doing before. And he's like, here, here I am in a place of need and I know where I can get support. And I'm going to do it despite like.
Michelle Renee (58:19)
No.
Jax (58:30)
whatever has been stopping me from doing that in the past.
Michelle Renee (58:35)
Okay, question in the book, in the books, is their communication really that spread out and sparse or do they elaborate more? Like I want to believe they had to talk, they had to share something more than that.
Jax (58:36)
Yes. Yes. Yes.
No. So I think honestly, it, so what's happening in episode four, where they're like more, I really love the show. I really love how the show brought it to life. In the book, they're fucking more. They're fucking like in the early season, in the early parts of the season, they have like an unspoken of ⁓ not fucking like when it's like, essentially I'm thinking everything after All-Star Game.
Michelle Renee (58:59)
Mm-hmm.
Jax (59:16)
So ⁓ I think like All-Star Games probably like mid-season and so after that they're like, okay, seriously, we gotta try to...
Michelle Renee (59:22)
No, yeah, it's serious. We can't because I also
had this like, isn't there like some rules for for men in sports? Like you don't fuck before a game because it makes you weak. Like it. Yeah, I feel like I've seen that even in high school. It was like a thing of like it will ruin your game because like your strength is depleted and your legs are wobbly or I don't know what the hell like. I don't know anybody having that.
Jax (59:30)
Yeah, for playoffs. They talk about it.
Yeah.
Many of
their ejaculation and orgasm, completion and conversation is always...
Michelle Renee (59:51)
I was gonna say,
I didn't have that greatest sex in high school to worry about my legs not failing me at sports, but.
Jax (1:00:01)
Also, feel like high school boys are ejaculating all the time. I mean, I don't have kids, but I feel like everything, all of media tells me that the baby boys are as soon as they can.
Michelle Renee (1:00:09)
I assume.
I'm sad
I wasn't. Like, I was a late bloomer. Like, I wasn't actively pursuing any of that back then, but I always assumed my boys were.
Jax (1:00:27)
I also don't, I have some assumptions around how soon they can control not doing it too. like, you know, between ⁓ nocturnal emissions and showering, feel like, I don't know, I think pop culture and my friends who have boys would just lead you to believe that teenage, there's a couple of years where there's like nonstop.
Michelle Renee (1:00:36)
Hmm.
Jax (1:00:55)
ejaculation happening.
Michelle Renee (1:00:56)
mean there was a
point but it was later in the teens that I sent my son lubricant. ⁓
wasn't living with him but yeah I was like I'm gonna send you some lube
Jax (1:01:09)
I feel like this is the second, you're the second mom I've heard do that in the last six months.
Michelle Renee (1:01:17)
Well, if you work with enough penises that have never had lubricant.
Jax (1:01:21)
Bye.
Michelle Renee (1:01:22)
Like.
When I was doing surrogate partner therapy, got a lot of, ⁓ like, you know, delayed debut, delayed sexual debut is the kind way to put it. ⁓ and they just, I always say, like, that was part of my intake of like, how do you masturbate? Tell me, are you using lube? Are you using your hand? And the first thing I would do is like, you've got to start using lube. You need to start using a sleeve to retrain your penis to what sensations could feel like.
Jax (1:01:33)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:01:55)
Because
when you've overstimulated the area, it's going to take something that a vagina can't do. If you're going to get to penetrative vaginal sex, you're going to need to learn how to experience lubrication and not have the death grip happening.
Jax (1:02:04)
Mm-hmm.
Can I name that in the book there's lots of lube? But there's so.
Michelle Renee (1:02:23)
Good. I mean, I saw the
spit. I saw the spit scene. And there was that part of me that went, ugh.
Jax (1:02:33)
love that scene. In the book also, there's this idea of like pre-cum being like...
I don't know, so much more than what it could possibly be. That's my one maybe with the book. She's like, ⁓ he's like.
Michelle Renee (1:02:49)
I don't know,
I've been with some people that have a lot of pre-cum.
Jax (1:02:54)
I think pre-cum is a delightful thing. I just want to name that. I can't think of it being enough to lube two penises.
Michelle Renee (1:03:04)
No, or for anal sex.
Jax (1:03:06)
no, so yeah,
no, for real. But yeah, the book, apparently Shane is a very wet boy with the pre-cum, but there's lube in like every room. There's lube all over the place. ⁓
Michelle Renee (1:03:18)
⁓
Good.
Jax (1:03:27)
Yeah, also just want to, I do want to like circle back to like listening turn So that is a beautiful example. And I want people to know that it's a great thing to practice with friends. Particularly when we don't want advice, we just want to work through something or we just want space to name things. It's great to go back and forth. It's a great way to start a meeting or like with a business partner. It's a great thing to do with a lover. ⁓
Michelle Renee (1:03:41)
Mm-hmm.
Jax (1:03:57)
I'm sure it would be a delightful thing to do with a child. So to allow a child space to like have their little pulpit, yeah. With the caveat that like, it's non-retributionary and it's non like, this isn't gonna be the subject of the rest of the evening because I've missed some things. I might be in the mood to talk more about it or I might not.
Michelle Renee (1:04:00)
Yeah.
see anything.
Yeah, because that's not part of it, right? There's not a response.
Jax (1:04:23)
Right. And I get
to say, get to place those parameters on it too. Like, I want to tell you this thing, but like, can you be in the room and not look at me? I want to say this thing, but like. ⁓
Can you not look me directly in my eyes? Or ⁓ I'm okay with natural responses and nods or like, please don't nod and like, seem like you're agreeing with everything that's gonna throw me off. ⁓ And people can also like set up their own limits. The person who's giving the gift can set their own limits around like, yeah, I'm down to hear anything except for about the president. Cause like, I don't have those spoons to hear that shit. I'm down to hear anything that's not.
inclusive of violence. I'm down here and even this not spoilers.
Michelle Renee (1:05:11)
Right, maybe
I'm down to hear anything that's not about me.
Jax (1:05:14)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:05:16)
We can like, that's the thing.
I think if we're going to give like a quick primer, if somebody wanted to jump into this, set a time limit, start short.
Jax (1:05:22)
Mm-hmm. Set a time limit.
Michelle Renee (1:05:29)
⁓
I'm gonna guess it would be best if both people got to have a turn and it wasn't just one directional.
Jax (1:05:37)
Yeah, typically, typically, yes. And if you don't have anything to say in your turn, you don't have to say anything. You could sit there. You could practice silence. You can end it at any time. You can be complete. Yeah. ⁓
Michelle Renee (1:05:42)
You can practice silence.
Mm-hmm.
You could eye gaze. It's your time. You get to do what you want with it. then, yeah, think ahead about what your parameters are. Maybe don't jump into the deep end of the pool in the first listening turn. You've been through Cuddlist training. We have a thing there. And I want to say, I forget that we don't set quite as strong.
Jax (1:05:59)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:06:19)
⁓ of like a container for like what the rules are as we do at like a pro at least from what I remember like you're supposed to be kind of stoic like not participating in any kind of like nodding or mm-hmms or
Jax (1:06:34)
Well, think it's
based on who you're speaking to. And I am a proponent of naming up front all of the things that you can name. As your limit, as that's person who's doing the listening and as the person who ⁓ who is requesting the gift. I want the gift to be if I am giving a gift.
Michelle Renee (1:06:39)
Okay.
Mm.
Jax (1:06:58)
And it's too, I want it to be to your specifications. And I wanna know if I can give that gift to your specifications or not. ⁓
Another one is that you could use that time to journal while being witnessed. So if I do have a lot to say about you and I don't want to say that about you and I don't know another language, maybe I'm journaling while being witnessed, while having the gift of your presence.
Michelle Renee (1:07:22)
Yeah.
Yeah, I just I think it's also I look at it as a diagnostic tool too, in that, gosh, how does it feel to not engage with a response? Like I will do this with a client and I'll say I want you to know before we start this, I'm going to work really hard not to respond to you because I want to see how much you're looking for my response. I want you to notice how much you're looking for my response and just notice it.
Jax (1:07:53)
Thank you.
Michelle Renee (1:07:56)
So there's so many different ways to play with it in setting those parameters. how does it feel different to know somebody? If I was sitting with you, I remember doing this around the touch exercises in ⁓ like a pro or wheel consent. How does it feel different when I am paying attention to your touch versus just looking around the room?
Jax (1:08:21)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:08:23)
What do we want when we are engaging in touch with another person? If you notice that it feels better when somebody is paying attention to you, then ask for that. So same thing with this. ⁓
Jax (1:08:32)
And that's more information.
Because how much are we doing things, even that are for us, that we want that indirect pleasure from, that we are still performing? I still want you to think I'm funny. I'm hoping you laugh.
Michelle Renee (1:08:51)
I love telling stories,
you know, I don't do it because it's fun to tell them. It's fun to hear somebody be amused by my story.
Jax (1:09:02)
Yeah, this is a beautiful practice.
Michelle Renee (1:09:04)
Mm-hmm.
Jax (1:09:08)
I would love to hear it.
Michelle Renee (1:09:08)
It is.
Jax (1:09:13)
So your overall take on the show now that you've finished because I was like early psychosis when I sat down with you. That's what I'm, that's probably not the best word.
Delusion, early like cottage delusion. What I said now with you is like, this is all I can think about and talk about. I know.
Michelle Renee (1:09:35)
I mean, that's how you were when I are you talking about today or when
I saw you in Baltimore because you were like that too then.
Jax (1:09:41)
Yeah. So I'm curious, so now that you've finished, like what are your overall?
Michelle Renee (1:09:47)
I love seeing more gay representation. I loved seeing an arc of like emotional growth. this one, I love Ted Lasso, right? I love this watching, you know, specifically like cis men grow. I love that. So it just...
I had a lot of sadness in the middle of it. had sadness for Shane, especially that, like I said, that moment in the elevator, he's like, he started to text like you didn't even kiss me. Like I've been in those spaces before where it was devoid. Like I always say, you can have intimacy without sex and you can have sex without intimacy.
Jax (1:10:31)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:10:33)
Yeah.
Jax (1:10:37)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:10:38)
Yeah, and it was sad for me because I know that's like an old behavior that I would have engaged in in a previous life. Where now I think I can't imagine getting all the way through an experience and not have been like time out. This isn't working for me or I'm noticing that like you're not kissing me. So people don't like kissing.
But you've been with this person before. Yeah, yeah.
Jax (1:11:08)
And he has kissed you. That's
their second time after that first time, which these are the most beautiful kisses that have ever existed. And then you get nothing? And he doesn't feel empowered in that moment to speak up as much as Ilya does a great job. think the other. So I look at everything in terms of consent. There's so many beautiful examples. And for me, that listening turn.
is an example of how consent can work in a way that's like very specific and very clearly outlined. ⁓ But I think as much as Ilya has created this consistency in checking in with Shane about how things feel and if he's okay,
Conversely, Shane hasn't learned yet that he can also speak up for the things that he wants. He can also kiss him. He's in this mode of going along with what this person, yeah, really want to please this person. I really want to show up the way that they want me to show up. That he's not even, hasn't taken a moment to say, like, it's not, like, why haven't I kissed him? Why am I not showing up in this space that's...
Michelle Renee (1:12:07)
Yeah.
He's a passenger.
Jax (1:12:31)
reserved for the only little bit of pleasures that I allow myself in a year.
Michelle Renee (1:12:36)
Okay, so I'm just thinking about what it's like to be a young sports star who's been doing this game for, know, since he could stand up, I imagine he was in skates, right? And there isn't choice in that space, right? And so I'm just thinking about my own journey and like, I remember...
The first I was in a call with Madeline Guanazo back in the day, bitching about why is it that this is back in early years of cuddling. Why is it every man comes for a cuddling session and they're all looking for sex or all trying to get sex, even though we say over and over again, this isn't what the space is for. And she went on about, you know, men being socialized to ⁓ ask for what they want and women being socialized to.
I always stumble on the word, ⁓ not negotiate, but.
term for it, needless to say, in that, as somebody who didn't ask for what I wanted, I never had to know what I wanted. And that's easier in some ways, right? And I went, I had this moment where I went, ⁓ shit, I have not asked for anything in this relationship. It's the same relationship I'm in now as the person I end up marrying, but we have been together for maybe two years at that point. And I was just going along.
I was letting I was really there was no part of me. I didn't want to rock the boat. It was good enough. And so we never had that first difficult conversation where this was the first time where I thought, OK, I'm going to ask for something. And if he says no, we might have to break up. And that's really hard to do the first time. And I said.
Jax (1:14:12)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:14:37)
I got off the call and I go, Paul, we need to have a conversation. I realized I've never asked you for anything. And so we got on a call and I said, we were poly and I said, I think I really want to try just being in an open relationship and not polyamory. Like I don't want to, I don't want to deal with the complexities of you trying to build all these other relationships. And he wasn't very good at our relationship, let alone like juggling.
Jax (1:14:59)
Oops.
Michelle Renee (1:15:06)
multiples. And it was like we did everything backwards. Like most people start monogamy and they're like, we should open up and then we should be poly And we're like, we started as poly and then kept and we eventually tried monogamy and then went back to open. Like we've done the we've gone up and down the scale. I just had the guts to just say it and he went, yeah, we can try that.
Jax (1:15:21)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:15:31)
And then the next time it's a little bit easier to have that conversation where I have an ask around my own needs. And it doesn't happen fast. As much as we try, I know in my work, and I'm guessing we have so much overlap in our work.
Jax (1:15:47)
Yeah,
this is the reason this work exists because 40 year old men, women, but primarily women, 40, 50 year old women are like, yeah, I've been married and things are cool. And everything we do is the way you decided we do it. And those things aren't working anymore or.
Michelle Renee (1:15:51)
Yeah.
huh.
Jax (1:16:13)
I really want to try this other thing and I have no idea. I don't have context for asking for those things. Or I haven't given myself permission to want anything in the first place that's outside of the things that have been presented to me.
Michelle Renee (1:16:27)
And then the question becomes why, right? There's lots of reasons why, but sometimes the reasons are because I just like, have these wounds from when we're children and we were trying to keep everything together in our family or we, couldn't rock the boat. It wasn't safe to speak up. Like there's just, there's so many different reasons. And then we get to an age where it's like, ⁓ shit, how much time have I missed out on? Because I haven't realized that I'm still acting from this.
younger part.
Maybe I can adjust course, but you got to take the first step and it's the scariest one.
Jax (1:17:05)
Mm-hmm.
And sometimes I'm gonna set these real things together and then I'm do the other thing and push. This was cool, but I didn't get the one thing that I really wanted. And how do I move differently after this? Because sometimes it takes realizing, like, wait a minute.
Michelle Renee (1:17:20)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean there is always
Jax (1:17:30)
what I thought was happening and what was actually happening didn't meet my needs. And how did we get here?
Michelle Renee (1:17:34)
Yeah.
And that's okay, because we get to have the little autopsy on it and then go back out and do it. This is you just got to practice. You got to put the training wheels on. And with the expectation that it's not going to go necessarily smoothly the first time, we're going to stumble and
Jax (1:17:39)
Mm-hmm. ⁓
Michelle Renee (1:18:00)
Checking out.
Jax (1:18:01)
Yeah, that it's easy. It might be easier with this partner than it was with this partner.
Michelle Renee (1:18:07)
I think, my
gosh, the people that try to fix established relationships, like I always say, like, God, I love the Wheel of Consent and how it would revolutionize relationships. And I love that that y'all are getting so many therapists in the training. Because I do think it's a really it's such an interesting paradigm to acknowledge in a relationship of like,
You know, it's a practice. We don't have to live in it all the time. like, just being able to like notice what you notice when working with the Wheel of Consent and the question of who is it for. Eye-opening. Eye-opening.
Jax (1:18:50)
Or am I in agreement or
am I in like some like vague expectation that hasn't been?
Michelle Renee (1:18:56)
But to do that work inside an established system is real hard.
Jax (1:19:03)
Yeah, it might blow it up.
And that's a hard sell, right? I'm like, believe in this work so deeply, so deeply.
Michelle Renee (1:19:15)
Your life will be different. It may not include the people that are in it right now and it may and it would be better if everybody is on board but it won't be the same.
Jax (1:19:27)
It
won't be the same.
Michelle Renee (1:19:33)
Yeah, this is why I don't know how you feel about working with ⁓ people that are partnered and their partner doesn't know that they're working with you. I have a big conversation around like, I'm not opposed to it. don't have any, I don't have any, you know, horses in this race or whatever the phrase is, but you're not going to, you're not going to spend time with me and not change. How are you going to explain that to your partner?
Jax (1:19:51)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:20:02)
Like you read a book, if you're a reader, you can just say it was a great podcast. I don't care what you're gonna do, but I want you to understand and inform consent. This doesn't not affect you.
Jax (1:20:07)
Yeah.
because you're going be a different person on the other side of it.
Michelle Renee (1:20:21)
Just asking the question, I remember I have a client, just the first session was, ⁓ hey, I can't trust your yes until I've heard your no. Blew his world up because he took it to heart.
Yeah.
Jax (1:20:40)
We said people like cracked open into the world. And it makes it hard. that's why all of these things are practices that might be easier to practice with someone like you. Might be easier to practice with someone like me.
Michelle Renee (1:20:43)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
I think I'm going on,
I think we're four years of work together and it's still a work in progress, right? Like it's still a work in progress for me and that's why I don't think it ends.
or just get better at it. Smoother.
Jax (1:21:14)
And then we start new relationships with people we want to impress and we're like, ⁓ no, but I'm going to have to be honest in me.
Michelle Renee (1:21:18)
Yes.
Can I make
this a confessional space? I'm going to say it out loud because I want to hold myself accountable for it. It's really interesting. I have been with my husband for 10 years. Really earned secure attachment in this relationship. come from more of a, I don't know, I say disorganized. Some people say I'm not disorganized. Anyways, I don't know. It doesn't matter.
Jax (1:21:26)
Please.
You
Michelle Renee (1:21:49)
What tends to happen is I'm the opposite of whatever other person I'm with, right? If somebody comes at me super, super like anxious, I'm super avoidant. know, like, yeah. If somebody comes at me really avoidant, I'm super anxious. And it has been so nice to sit back and relax with my husband. And I've gotten to this place that I'm getting so like trusting, which I, my first marriage blew up in not a really pretty way. So it was hard to kind of get back to that space of feeling like I'm good here. And ⁓
Jax (1:21:52)
Hahaha
Michelle Renee (1:22:19)
And then I started getting ever since right before my 50th birthday, I've been way more sexually active with a variety of partners. And occasionally a little bit of anxious Michelle pops up. And like the other day, I had a really lovely time with somebody that I've kind of. ⁓
knew in passing, not really very much. And I was like, we should hang out. Spent a ton of time talking. Like, he came over at like 430 in the afternoon. Didn't leave till two in the morning. There were sexy times by the end of it. ⁓ But probably what, a couple hours tops maybe of that. But the level of intimacy because of all that talking, like just learning about each other, and then
Jax (1:23:03)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:23:14)
the quality and I can't even I kept saying I can't describe what you feel like. It's such a different combination of of of experiences for me. It was like he was very firm and slow in his touch like it's very intentional and is very just there was so much energy behind it. It was very intoxicating and I found myself waking up the next morning.
with such an intimacy hangover and the doubt that flooded in. haven't felt the, my God, did he have a good time? Do you think he'll call me? Like any of those anxious feelings, I have not felt those in so long. And I was like, what the fuck is going on with you, Michelle? And I called a friend and I talked it through. And where I came to is like, I enjoyed it so much that I'm actually invested in hoping.
Jax (1:23:46)
Hmm.
Thank
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:24:13)
that he feels the same way. Right? Like, and I haven't felt that, like, I'm pretty easy breezy. love my friends. It's fun to be sexy with my friends. And they're more established as my friends. I know where I sit with them. And in this person, it's all up in the air. And I'm like being very patient. And I didn't I didn't act on those anxious feelings. didn't. Young Michelle would have been like somehow trying to manipulate him into like telling me.
Jax (1:24:15)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:24:43)
And one of my friends goes, why don't you just ask him? I'm like, because I'm not going to do that, especially not in text.
Jax (1:24:49)
You could!
Michelle Renee (1:24:50)
I could, but I can also, I'm patient. I can just let it play out.
Jax (1:24:53)
We can be Scots if we want to.
Michelle Renee (1:24:58)
I, I yes, we could be, I, I personally saw red flags all over Scott. There was a part, there was a part where I in the very early part of, of, of Scott Hunter, where I was like, this is swoony. Like, I am so enjoying this. And then it turned into, shit, is this love bombing? Like there was this, is he going to turn into the serial killer that he keeps mentioning? Like, I wasn't sure where they're going to go with the story on that one.
Jax (1:25:03)
It's so funny.
I saw
somebody say that like Scott's the only honest love bomber to ever exist, except that he was manipulative. He showed up in a very different way than he actually had the capacity to show up for that man. But, but I also, yeah, all of that resonates really, really hard with me. Really, really, because I think, yeah, I, I'm in love with my friends, I'm in love with my friends. And then there's a couple people that come along twice in the last year.
Michelle Renee (1:25:33)
Absolutely. He was a dreamer.
Yeah.
Jax (1:25:51)
that I've been like, ⁓ please like me. And one didn't.
Michelle Renee (1:25:56)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, but it's like I want
like I've made this shift in so many places of my life where I'm like, it's not about trying to be picked. It's about who do I want to pick? Right. And in this case, it did a little flip on me. And I'm like, Michelle, I only want to be met where I met equally. Let's see how he shows up. Right. I'm not going to not have our usual interactions, but like I'm not.
Jax (1:26:07)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:26:28)
I'm not ultimately I'm okay either way. Yes, it was lovely. I'm past the initial high of it, right? We have to have a couple days to get the oxytocin out of our system. For me, a good four days is helpful. I have a date with someone on Saturday. I will be high as a kite for four days. I will float into my house and my husband will go have a good time and I'll be like, yes, it was great. Right? I know myself four days.
Jax (1:26:48)
Hahaha
Michelle Renee (1:26:58)
I will detox and I'll go back to normal.
Jax (1:27:04)
I think if you need some serotonin in between, some dopamine, just re-
Michelle Renee (1:27:09)
I could rewatch Heated Rivalry for you.
No, you know what helps is having a new crush because in between that I met the I good old Chad out in Vegas and it helps shift my my my gaze moved. It's good.
Jax (1:27:28)
Mm.
can help.
Michelle Renee (1:27:33)
Mm-hmm.
Jax (1:27:36)
for sure.
Michelle Renee (1:27:37)
It's just fun to have a life where I get to crush on people.
Jax (1:27:41)
Yeah, I think the funny thing about crushes, think is when you haven't had one in a while or you don't have one in the moment. Maybe I'm dramatic. I'm like, I'm never going to like anyone ever again. Because it's pretty few and far between. And the fact that I have like two back to back recently or fairly like close and like within a couple months, I was like, ⁓
Michelle Renee (1:27:55)
⁓ I thought.
Me too, usually.
Yeah.
Jax (1:28:09)
maybe I do like people because I sometimes I'm like, I don't know that I like people outside of like the people I just feel very connected and like already like love pretty deeply.
Michelle Renee (1:28:14)
⁓ no, I mean, that's the
I'm still not interested in going out and searching for that. Like, you're not going to find me on a dating app. Like, they never worked well for me anyways. I need to like, I'm in love with the feeling I have when I'm around you. You know what I mean? Like, I can't tell that from a dating app. And so it's nice right now that it feels like it's coming in like rapid fire, but for years, I was like, I'm good. I don't need it. I'm practically monogamous.
Jax (1:28:27)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:28:54)
And now I'm like, look at you, Michelle. January was a good month.
Jax (1:29:00)
I think it's waves too. I it's waves. I feel like fall winter was great. And now it's like winter winter. I'm very.
Michelle Renee (1:29:02)
Mm-hmm.
Well, you're in a place
where nobody wants to leave their house.
Jax (1:29:16)
Yeah, but I'm also very
chill staying in the house because I had such a lovely end of the year.
that like I'm cool
I'm cool over here because then it'll be spring and then I'll be running around and like who knows who knows what will happen. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:29:29)
Mm-hmm.
It's abundance, right? It's
like, I don't know, we run in like these circles. I'm going to make an assumption that you're in a very similar circle to me, just because of the kind of people that we are in the work that we do. But like, I have a wonderful bubble. And while the world is fucking falling apart, it's a weird space of like, people go, how are you? I'm like, I'm great.
Jax (1:29:45)
you
Michelle Renee (1:30:01)
And the world is fucked. ⁓
Jax (1:30:04)
It can always be very confusing. ⁓ But yeah, yeah, I much feel that way. Like the world is, the world is country.
is crushing.
Michelle Renee (1:30:20)
Mm-hmm.
Jax (1:30:22)
And... ⁓
And I, even going back to this, part of the reason I almost didn't watch this, because I thought, was like, you know, the straight girls are like going nuts over this show, like boys kissing. I'm like, I can see boys kissing all the time. I see my friends kissing all the time. My friends are very hot and very, like, I was like, yeah, this is going to be like something for the people who don't have a lot of space in their life. to realize that, right, right, right.
Michelle Renee (1:30:38)
Mm-hmm.
But maybe it's not fantasy for us. We're like,
it's a story, but it's like, there's a difference between hearing a story, reading a story, listening to a story, watching a story, and thinking of it as something that's so unattainable that it's completely a fantasy.
Jax (1:31:10)
I don't know that cottage is kind of a fantasy. Both of those houses. Those houses are fantasy.
Michelle Renee (1:31:13)
I love the architecture.
Yeah.
Jax (1:31:20)
⁓
Michelle Renee (1:31:22)
But we have, I I speak for you. I think we have great sex lives. We're not living vicariously through other people. I that's what I'm trying to say is like, I feel very blessed. And back to the whole situation in the world. I have a big thing about like, you've got to keep your micro worlds good so that you can handle the macro world.
Jax (1:31:28)
cat.
Yeah, I feel very. Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:31:51)
If you haven't got a good micro world and the macro world's fucked, like, yeah, that's hard.
Hard. Yeah.
Jax (1:32:01)
Agreed.
Agreed. And so my like little thing that I'm doing after like coming out of Creating Change and like really spending some time with folks from Minnesota who are like doing the work on the ground there as activists and healers is I'm like meeting my neighbors and they're helping me shovel snow and I'm like, you know, passing along salt. That's been my like what I'm doing now because outside of just my people that I love, I want more people that I
Michelle Renee (1:32:13)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jax (1:32:31)
I'm accountable to in my like actual geography wise. Because I don't know what's to come. So I just want to be like, I'm meeting my neighbors now. That's my like thing.
Michelle Renee (1:32:38)
Yeah.
I took her.
Yeah,
I took a ⁓ really early morning call one day from a, I wouldn't say, I mean, not a close friend, an acquaintance who had just come home from a protest and was really disturbed by what he witnessed and just wondered if I could just listen. And I was like, absolutely. Like, and so I jumped on a call. I was on the East Coast. It was like six in the morning on the East Coast and it was three in the morning back here.
And was like, I can't be out there. But it feels good to like support you with this phone call.
Jax (1:33:17)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:33:25)
Yeah.
Jax (1:33:26)
Are you getting the gift of your attention?
Michelle Renee (1:33:28)
Mm-hmm. My attention and my affection and every gift that I think I do well. Yeah.
Jax (1:33:33)
Mm-hmm.
you
Michelle Renee (1:33:41)
Hmm, Jax, thanks for joining me and I'm glad I could create a space for you to get all geeky about the boys. You're so cute. You're so cute. Yeah, I love I love your enthusiasm. It's just absolutely delightful.
Jax (1:33:47)
Thanks for having me. Thanks. I appreciate it so much. ⁓
Michelle Renee (1:34:02)
Anything else? ⁓ you know what? Where can people find you if they're like this Jax, I want to follow them and maybe work with them and and whatnots.
Jax (1:34:11)
Yes.
So on the internet everywhere, I'm touched by Jax. So like Instagram website.
Facebook, also dccuddleclubs.com or touchbyjax.com. I see folks one-on-one, I also do workshops, I will come and teach workshops, and I think that what I don't have links for and stuff yet, I think I'm actually going to do like a little mini series on like Wheel of Consent and Heated Rivalry because I think there's some other things in there that I touch on. And I, and.
if you want to see me like a pro. I'll be at a couple of like a pros coming up. So in Chicago in April in North Carolina in March. So if you like really want to geek out on this. So if you are interested in the workshops that I will host, follow me on the internet for joining my. ⁓
my mailing list. March I think will be my next online offering. And ⁓ if you want some longer time with the practice, looking at like a pro on the schoolofconsent.com or org, I don't know. Yeah. ⁓
Michelle Renee (1:35:34)
I think it's, I think it's org.
I always say, like a pro is my absolute favorite training that I've taken.
Jax (1:35:46)
Me too, that's why I do like, at
this point I think I'm doing maybe six this year? No, four. Four? I'm doing a lot this year. The two that are open for registration are those, but I'm gonna be at several of them this year.
Michelle Renee (1:35:52)
Bye.
Yeah.
Cool. Awesome. Well, thanks for joining us and thanks everybody for listening to us ramble on. I call this my voyeur podcast where you just get to sit and listen to me talk to my friends.
Jax (1:36:05)
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, send me all of the juicy memes. I probably already have them. But like, if you if anybody wants to like just nerd out on either I'll raise me.
Michelle Renee (1:36:22)
You
know how you always had that friend where you send certain stuff to? You're like, I want to be your friend. I want to be your heated rivalry friend.
Jax (1:36:26)
People have been sending me stuff
and most of it I've already seen and I'm like, just want more people to like join the lunacy with me. Thank you.
Michelle Renee (1:36:36)
Whatever brings us joy. Awesome.
