Jake Apton
Michelle sits down with Jake Apton, a porn performer, stripper, cosplayer, and self-described "big fucking nerd" she briefly met at the AVN Expo in January but never really got to know. What starts as a tour of Jake's deeply personal tattoo collection quickly opens into a wide-ranging conversation about building a life and career in sex work, navigating identity and attraction as a gay man who "doesn't read gay," the surprising overlap between anime convention culture and adult entertainment, and what it means to reclaim your relationship with your own libido. They play a few rounds of We're Not Really Strangers, swap stories about armpits (yes, really), and land in unexpectedly tender territory about friend breakups, depression, and the people in your life who aren't "people." Those are the ones you can just sit on a couch with and not say a word. A warm, unscripted, delightfully wide-open conversation with someone Michelle barely knew before hitting record and now kind of feels like she does.
Jake Apton is a porn performer, exotic dancer, cosplayer, and content creator based in New York City. You can find all his links at https://lnk.bio/jcapwolf.
Michelle Renee (she/her) is a therapeutic intimacy specialist, trained as both a Cuddle Therapist and Surrogate Partner, and a co-owner at https://Cuddlist.com. She practices a trauma-informed, consent-based approach that helps folks of all genders rebuild trust with touch, set clear boundaries, and access authentic pleasure ... at their own pace. She serves clients nationwide as a holistic intimacy coach and partners with therapists to integrate somatic, consent-based healing. Michelle's websites are https://meetmichellerenee.com and https://humanconnectionlab.com and she can be found on social media at https://instagram.com/meetmichellerenee.
If you’d like to ask a question for Michelle to answer on an episode, or you’d like to join her for an Intimacy Lab Experience, visit https://intimacylabpodcast.com.
To grab your own set of We’re Not Really Strangers https://amzn.to/47XJjvm
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Rough Transcript:
Michelle Renee (00:21)
Hello there, welcome back to the Intimacy Lab. I'm Michelle Renee. ⁓ I get a chance to talk to people sometimes and even though I've got a couple of episodes in the hopper that I still haven't put out, I couldn't not say yes to Jake when he said yes and showed up on my calendar. So I'm gonna welcome Jake Apton here. I met Jake at the AVN awards back, or what do they call it? The Adult Expo or whatever it's called, back in January when I was there with my
Dear wonderful. I don't even know what to call him anymore. Alex, I'm almost ready to call him my partner. I think that would really fuck people's head up because they're like, but he's a gay man. And I'm like, I don't care. He's in that close range for me as far as like the inner rings of the tree. Like he's in that that inner spot next to like my husband and stuff. So but I met Jake. Jake is a very I don't know. It just feels like a dated term. Say Jake is a very tall drink of water. And when I met Jake, was
in a cowboy hat, very tall. How tall are you, Yeah, so taller than Alex in a cowboy hat on top of it. And doing this super fun, ⁓ gave us, yes, there we go, gave us a really lovely tour of his tattoos, which just like stuck with me. And if anybody knows me in my personal life, they have heard me talk about your tattoos, Jake, because they just say a lot about, I felt like in the smidgen of time that I got to stand there while you were talking. ⁓
Jake Apton (01:20)
I'm 6'5".
Michelle Renee (01:46)
It felt like this, if I could capture you in a little micro moment. It said a lot to me. I don't know if it's anything true about who you are, but I was like, this is a jorky, like nerdy boy that ⁓ has a fun personality. like, that's, think what I loved about walking through AVN with Alex is because Alex got to interact with so many people. I just got a very more personal side to the porn world, which was really wonderful.
Not that I had any like, ⁓ I didn't have like a negative view. It was just, I never sat and just talked to so many performers. And so it was just, it made it, I want to be back there. I can't wait to go back next year. So, so Jake, lovely to have you here with us.
Jake Apton (02:31)
I
thank you for having me. I'm going to say, just double up and say that, that my time at the AVN expo was very, very similar. I had such a positive experience there. I, I don't think I met anybody that I didn't enjoy talking to. And like, like everybody in the industry that I met was so down to earth, so grounded, so personable, so friendly. Like I didn't meet a single person in the industry that I could say a bad thing about.
Michelle Renee (02:47)
Yeah.
Yeah, even I mean,
Jake Apton (03:01)
Yeah, the
Michelle Renee (03:01)
the the
Jake Apton (03:01)
bigger the kid, the bigger the person, bigger the, you know, the resume that they have, like the ego didn't match that. Like they were just so down to earth and they were just people.
Michelle Renee (03:08)
Yeah.
Not to be fair, I pretty much hung out just in that little gay section because, A, it was less crowded. Like my my introverted, don't really care for crowds thing when it was the really, really busiest times of the day and I was going through the Expo Center. I was always kind of like, just get me back to that spot. Also, I have a super big crush on Chad, Chad Rex.
Jake Apton (03:39)
and we are next to each other.
Michelle Renee (03:40)
I don't know if you met him.
He's another very nerdy boy, but happens to be bi. And so, know, Michelle's like, oh, there's a chance. We actually did. He actually came up to San Diego like the next weekend and we got to some time together. But it was quieter in the in the gay area of the expo, which was really for me really nice. But I too didn't meet anybody that wasn't just.
an absolute delight to chat with, even like the few people that I actually talked to that were attendees, like fans and whatnot. There was that moment. I don't think I've done anything on my podcast about being there, but being so deeply into like gay porn world with Alex, I was very invisible as a woman. And I find that every time I walk into like we were walking into Mr. S Leather in San Francisco and it's like, I don't even exist. And that's a
weird feeling and also kind of nice in a way, like it's a break. And so I did interact with one group of men that were there on a bachelor party. And even that was a really delightful experience. So ⁓ I will seep in the soup of all of the like, what how to describe it. It's like there's flirtation in the air with y'all like y'all are like
Jake Apton (04:52)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (04:54)
We should collaborate. And I'm like, is that the new pickup line? I think that's the one I want to go with from now on is like, we should do a collaboration. That's the line.
Yeah, did you? Yeah, do you do you want to tell everybody who you are? Because I just talked about how I met you. But like, who who are you? What do do?
Jake Apton (05:03)
Yeah, that, yeah.
⁓ my god.
I'm bad
about talking about myself too. So I'm Jake Apton. ⁓ I guess I could say now like I'm a porn star. I am a stripper. I do cosplay. I am a big fucking nerd. ⁓ I'm a little bit of everything. yeah, I really got to work at work on that self pitch there.
Michelle Renee (05:30)
That's that's OK. I I had this moment where I was like, OK, part of me wants to bring in my business partner, Keely, to talk to you about cosplay, because that's like totally her jam. She is like Dragon Con with multiple like I think at one point she had a rental van that she drove all her costumes down in from Chicago like she's she's the she was just at the Star Trek cruise and is like got three costume changes a day kind of intense. So one day.
Jake Apton (05:48)
Yeah. ⁓ yeah.
Michelle Renee (05:58)
I'm gonna try to get her to AVN. Y'all have to meet, because you guys will get along together. And then...
Jake Apton (06:03)
So I was
with our PAX this weekend in Boston. it's, know.
Michelle Renee (06:06)
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
She wasn't there, but she probably would have been if I hadn't. We just got off of ourselves. We own Cuddlist, which is a professional cuddling training organization. And we just got done with a bunch of conferences ourselves that were not nearly as well. I think they're fun, but that's because I'm a therapy nerd. But they're not nearly as fun as something like PACS. ⁓
Yeah. And then and then I also thought about like pulling my husband in to help me on this because he's like more on the anime side of stuff. And I like I'm the dork that collects all the nerds from all the different genres. But my genre is like sex and relationship nerdiness. And so I have a little I love people's excitement about different things. But I'm not the person that cosplays. But now I want to know what's your favorite.
What is your favorite costume that you have? Like, what is your number one go-to? Like, everybody's got their Spider-Man version, right? I think that's what I heard.
Jake Apton (07:02)
I
kind of like I like I get really bored with my outfits like I'll wear mine usually for about a year cycle and then I get kind of bored like the creative edge of like I want to create something new so then like I retire them like I should die I have my background blurry just because I'm in the process of like cleaning and getting ready to move so like my entire room is a mess right now but I just have like bins and bins and bins of like cosplay stuff that I've pulled out of the cosplay class that I'm now slowly going through
Michelle Renee (07:21)
Mm-hmm.
So you could probably, I'm guessing, upgrade, put them in a twist or something. I don't know. I'm just thinking about Keely pulls stuff together.
Jake Apton (07:34)
Yeah.
So
the of the causes, so the cosplay of that I did pretty much, I did a couple of days at PAX. I was a pyramid head from Silent Hill. ⁓ Probably. And it was pretty comfortable. Actually, I didn't mind it as much as I, it wasn't as obstructive as I thought it would be.
Michelle Renee (07:47)
I think I saw that picture on your Instagram. Yeah.
Well, how tall did that make you? Because that was a pretty...
Jake Apton (07:59)
that added, I brought another foot onto me. Yeah. Well, it's just, it's just big and intimidating. I have like this giant six foot sword that I'm dragging around behind me. So it's supposed to be an intimidating character. Like it's he's one of the big bads or big bosses I have to face in Silent Hill. So it's always an intimidating costume, but I have the build for it. And I like to bring that to life and just to see people react to it. ⁓
Michelle Renee (08:01)
Yeah, you probably do, I mean, inside pretty big spaces.
Yeah.
Yeah. Have you been able to bring any of that
into like any of your porn performances? ⁓ I feel like that should be your that should be your special like genre.
Jake Apton (08:26)
I haven't yet. ⁓ This is my first time learning that at home.
The issue I faced with that is like I don't like doing like I don't like doing this Spider-Man or the Batman or Superman characters I don't like the like if I go to a con and there's like ten other people dressed as the same character that's a turnoff for me I Would much rather pull a lot more effort into like this like nobody character that nobody's ever seen in real life like one of
Michelle Renee (08:43)
Yeah. Yeah.
Okay, so could
you pull that into a collaboration where if you know you know, and then you get that like super kind of the, what do they say? yeah, like I remember I went to a burlesque show last, no.
Jake Apton (08:58)
Maybe?
Except the niche.
Michelle Renee (09:11)
A couple of prides ago, there was a burlesque show here that was pride themed, but also because of San Diego, was Comic Con themed. So it was a mix of both. Right. I can't tell you what it was because it didn't resonate with me. My husband lost his shit because he knew this little tiny storyline that didn't hit the US. But like it's this very niche little thing. And he was. Yeah, he was lit up like a Christmas tree. He was so stinking happy to know what that was.
Jake Apton (09:18)
yeah.
Mm-hmm.
The song needs a very specific one.
Michelle Renee (09:38)
And I just think, wonder if that's almost like could be like a little Easter egg for you.
Jake Apton (09:41)
So
I love lovely brought up for less because I'm two of the anime cons I go to I've started running my own burlesque show there. Because exactly that I want to do these niche characters, these niche moments that I just went to a normal gay bar. Like the one person in the audience is gonna be a gamble if they're there. But if I do this, know, hyper specific set at an anime con, it's not gonna just give me one person in the audience. There's going to be 20 people in the audience that now get this very inside joke.
Michelle Renee (10:09)
Yeah, that might even be just my brain goes to business and I'm like, well, there's a just a separate only fans situation or whatever, whatever your choice platform of of having what all do you do? Like, like what? So you I know you do some stripping. Do you start stripping?
Jake Apton (10:12)
Yeah.
yeah.
⁓ I started with only fans. started only fans, February, 2020. So right before, right before COVID or like everybody else started only fans, but coming out of COVID, I saw an opportunity to start stripping and. Excuse me. At that point, I just had like the, cabin fever from COVID. I'm like, I need to get outside. I need to do something like, just, just give me something exciting to do. So I jumped on it it was like, like, fuck it. This is cool. This is random. Let's just go for it. ⁓
Michelle Renee (10:32)
Mmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jake Apton (10:53)
Actually, I always joke I started stripping because of a trans joke. ⁓ it was a local gentleman's club that was they wanted to start having a guy's night. ⁓ and they put out this flyer, like very specifically saying no experience necessary. And a trans friend of mine posted or shared on Facebook. And the only reason I saw it was because he posted it. But he posted with a caption like, ⁓ like I've only been a guy for a couple of years and I don't even have a penis. Do they really mean no experience necessary?
Michelle Renee (10:56)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Right.
Jake Apton (11:20)
hysterical like this but I give full credit for that I'm like yeah this trans joke is why I started stripping like I wouldn't have seen this post if not for that ⁓ and just by by getting in the big getting in the door there and being bold enough to step on stage and take my clothes off I met so many people and networked so much that ⁓ I was performer of the year at one of the clubs I was working at in 2023
Michelle Renee (11:23)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jake Apton (11:44)
That's X Room in Massachusetts. It's the only male, ⁓ the only fully nude maelstrom club in New England. Yeah. ⁓ So again, just, you know, know, stepping on stage and at that point just having my, you know, full dick out, just like everything on display. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (11:51)
Love that.
What is that?
What are the because like, I've only been in a strip club one time, I think I didn't really like it. I felt like
Well, a some lady walked up some woman that worked there walked up to me and grabbed my tits and I was like, I don't even work here. But like, I don't know, I have such a level of consent that like I am so sensitive to consent. ⁓ But so so is this primarily then is it primarily a gay strip club? Or is are you is it is it mixed? It's just we want to watch men strip.
Jake Apton (12:17)
⁓ yeah, that's.
Yeah.
The... Yeah.
It's primarily... So, the club I started at... That was in Albany, New York, which is my hometown. ⁓ That was the Gentleman's Club. They were trying to... They were specifically trying to get a straight female audience to come out. ⁓ And that... That guys that they were running didn't last very long because they, one, weren't advertising it correctly and it just...
Michelle Renee (12:45)
Mm-hmm.
okay.
Jake Apton (13:02)
having a $20 cover on a Wednesday night was just not a good move. X Room in Massachusetts is a gay bar. And at like when I started working there, they were attached like the building was physically attached and connected to this club called Mardi Gras, which was a gentleman's club. So we would oftentimes we would get like the wives of the guy. So we got young people come and go guys would go to one side and like their wives would go wives girlfriends would go to the other side.
Michelle Renee (13:05)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
That's kind of cool.
Jake Apton (13:30)
It was, it also led to a lot of just awkward interactions of like, we're sitting there giving, know, giving a lady a lap dance, we're just sitting in the bar naked, you know, in front of her. And the guy would come over and then get really upset. It's like, Brittany over there was just doing that to you. like, I'm like, right. Right.
Michelle Renee (13:41)
Mm-hmm.
I mean, that's just the typical, I think, toxic,
hetero, mono, yeah, just, yeah. Yeah, I just remember, I did, when I was in college, ⁓ one of my friends was a bouncer at a strip club, and we went out to this bar after like final exams or something like that. And ⁓ he, because he was a bouncer at the strip club,
Jake Apton (13:52)
Yeah, in fragile masculinity. Yeah.
So, but it's.
Michelle Renee (14:13)
come to find out there was a private party going on in this back room for some stripper's birthday or whatever like that. So that was my second maybe kind of experience. But it was interesting because I don't remember a lot about it, but I remember that the two male strippers that were there were actually gay. And I was like, this is just why wouldn't I don't know. I feel like there's a better market that way. As a cuddler, if you come in to the cuddling world as a male practitioner, ⁓ you're
Clients are going to primarily be men. I think it just works in all sorts of different industries that that's who gets service.
Jake Apton (14:49)
Yeah. And now like now I primarily go go in New York City. it's funny that you bring that up because I often get allegation. The customers come in that they don't think I'm gay. They're like, God.
Michelle Renee (15:00)
You
don't read typically. I mean, even I was like, who knows?
Jake Apton (15:05)
Yeah.
Yep. No, they like I've had people say straight to my face like, like, yo, you're really hot but Like I want to save money to tip like the gay dancers. I'm like, so tip me.
Michelle Renee (15:14)
I'm sorry I don't fit your stereotype. Yeah, I'm sorry. You have to get branded or something maybe. Maybe that's your next tattoo is like, no, I'm really gay.
Jake Apton (15:16)
I'm the one you're looking for. ⁓
Right.
I usually followed up with something like, yeah, sorry. I usually say, when I'm in the club, I'm not gay enough, but as soon as I step outside, I'm too gay for my parents to love. It's fine, it's my drama.
It's I'm in there. I had therapy today. We're good. We're joking about this.
Michelle Renee (15:40)
But I just, I know I just, I wish the
world wasn't like this, you know? Like I just, I'm sorry, that's hard. ⁓ So you're not in Albany, Albany anymore is my, so you're in New York City more so than that area? Yeah. I go up to, I was up, I flew into Albany last summer. was part of this big immersive cuddle retreat. So I come back that direction.
Jake Apton (15:46)
because.
Yeah, I'm primarily dancing in New York City now.
Okay.
Michelle Renee (16:08)
And Albany Airport is such a little, almost reminds me of where I grew up in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Like it was just such a small little regional airport, but. Hey, congratulations. What's that?
Jake Apton (16:11)
Mmm.
It's under construction right now too, so it's even smaller.
It's under construction now, so it's even smaller.
Michelle Renee (16:26)
Yeah, but
I always say like, congratulations of getting out of wherever you grew up. don't it doesn't really matter where it is. But I feel like I avoid my class reunions because a lot of people still live in the tiny little town that that I grew up in. So. ⁓ All right. So so I met you and you have these adorable tattoos. Can you I don't take your shirt off, but can you tell us about the like I always.
Jake Apton (16:38)
Yeah.
Yes.
I
can do the full tour. I don't mind I have Yeah So I have a 10 or 11 tattoos depending on how you count them Trying to think what the best way to to start because all I lose count so
Michelle Renee (16:55)
I mean, if you want to, we're on video. So I will I will I will let you take your shirt off. I'm not going to like not let us have that experience if you want. Yeah.
don't even
think I knew about all of them. just remember the cute like all the ones that are just so is it is the word ironic? I'm not sure how to describe the word about how you've chosen to do some of your tattoos that are so body centric.
Jake Apton (17:12)
my gosh.
So, this one, this is my elbow. It's a ghost on my elbow. It's my elbow. And it's funny because usually sometimes people either immediately get it or I have to explain it to them.
Michelle Renee (17:25)
Yeah.
Well, it can be a litmus test. Yeah.
Jake Apton (17:33)
Yeah, she
had PAX. I was talking to somebody. He's like, I like your little ghost. I'm like, thanks. It's my elbow. He's like your elbow. I'm like, no, my elbow. Um, and then on my bicep, have a HM 04. In, in Pokemon HMO four is the move strength and the move strength cannot be forgotten. So I have it like when I started like my fitness journey, I got that as a promise myself that I was going to keep going and remember like how far I've come. So
Michelle Renee (17:40)
boo.
which was for...
Okay.
Yeah.
Jake Apton (17:57)
I have a four leaf clover with a peace sign and this is peace and luck. This is based on a bumper sticker from Dutch Bros coffee. Yep. Back in college, one of my really good friends Ashley, she lives ⁓ up in the Portland area. ⁓ So she loves coffee. So she'd get like duplicates of her stickers and whenever she had duplicates, she'd send them to me. So this was my first tattoo and as I got this one, that'd be a cool tattoo design.
Michelle Renee (18:06)
yeah.
Jake Apton (18:23)
⁓ and now it's just kind of like a, like, and I always like peace and luck because it's, it's just a really simplistic thing, but it's also a, like a nod to like our friendship and we've been pen pals for almost 20 years now. So yeah. my newest one, ⁓ this is my, this is my shoulder blade. Shoulder blade, right? So.
Michelle Renee (18:34)
that. Yeah.
Yep. Yep. This is what I love about you when
I met you. I was just like, this is so fun.
Jake Apton (18:47)
So I have Captain America here on my side. ⁓ I have my Captain America belt and Captain America has always been my favorite hero. So I have one on my thigh.
Michelle Renee (18:49)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. this is gonna be fun.
Jake Apton (18:56)
So I have Ghostface on my thought.
Michelle Renee (18:58)
⁓ cool,
I don't think I noticed that one before. ⁓ yeah, you're right, you were.
Jake Apton (19:00)
I think I was wearing jeans when we met.
And then the rest
are all lower on my leg, legs, I should say. So I have, this is my calf tattoo, because it's a calf on my calf, it's my calf tattoo. And then on this leg, have Icarus just below my knee. I like the myth of Icarus and I can get more into that. And then on the backside, I have, I can't quite. So I have, it's going to be blurry, but.
Michelle Renee (19:12)
Yep. Yep.
Mm-hmm.
It wants to blur
you. Yeah, you can describe them.
Jake Apton (19:31)
Yeah, well,
yeah, so I have the VFD tattoo from the series of unfortunate events, which ⁓ it's a book series I read as a kid. ⁓ But it was one of my favorite book series and VFD was like that logo was something I was always doodling as a kid. So and then I have Omega Sableye ⁓ as ⁓ another Pokemon.
Michelle Renee (19:38)
I don't know that one.
⁓ gotcha.
Jake Apton (19:55)
And then I have a piece of artwork that I saw at New York Comic Con just as a print and loved it and got the artist's permission and got it tattooed. So.
Michelle Renee (20:03)
That's awesome. I would have more
tattoos if I wasn't, I'm so bad about making appointments. And the only tattoo I have is, let me see if I can put it in a way that you can see it. It's a dick dick. It's a tiny little antelope, but it's, it's on my arm for me to look at. So it's a little hard to show it off, but it's a matching one to my best friend back in Michigan who wanted us to get matching tattoos. And, um,
Jake Apton (20:09)
Yeah.
Okay, yep.
that.
Michelle Renee (20:30)
she has stage four breast cancer and she said, could we get matching tattoos? And was like, I'll do whatever you want me to do. And she goes, I thought we could get some lobsters because they mate for life, which I guess was not actually true. was like a friends episode that got like this, like my husband's in the background going, friends lied to you. That's not true. So we looked up a list of animals that mate for life. And because I have this inner 13 year old boy,
⁓ It was either going to be the dick dick or beavers because I figured either one will be fun to say I have on my arm, right? So I'm always like, I have a dick dick on my arm and it's super wholesome. And at the same time, my inner 13 year old boy gets to giggle just a little bit. And so, yeah, I have other ideas, but I'm just really bad at making appointments. And then I have to have to pick a tattoo artist and I make an appointment plan ahead and all those things. So I don't know when it
Jake Apton (21:05)
Be brave.
Yeah, you get to giggle.
Yeah, there's a, so yeah, there's one local shop here near me that they've done all my work. ⁓ Yeah.
Michelle Renee (21:27)
and somebody's gonna have to be my buddy.
That makes it so much easier if you can just pick
your... This was done in Grand Rapids, Michigan and the chances that I'm going to go back to get on my tattoos done is...
Jake Apton (21:43)
My dad always had a rule growing up that we could get a tattoo but we couldn't get a tattoo before him. It was one of their rebellious rules, if you're gonna rebel, just let us know so we can do it. So when I decided that I wanted my Peace and Luck tattoo, ⁓ his birthday was coming up and I got my mom and brother on board. like, what if we got dad a tattoo? Because I want a tattoo.
Michelle Renee (22:01)
Aww.
And he did it.
Jake Apton (22:03)
And yeah, we did it. ⁓ we, there was a bit of like a mix up with the, with the appointments. So mine actually ended up being first, but I kind of knew what he wanted. Like I knew he was looking for a, ⁓ it was like a very fine, like black and gray, ⁓ like horse drawn fire carriage. And so we grew up in the fire company. Like my parents were both firefighters. So that's very symbolic for him. But I took his reference photo and went to like every shop I can think of near my parents' house and
Michelle Renee (22:18)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jake Apton (22:29)
Most of would just, most of the shops were like, like it would be this much or like, we'd have to like turn it this way or we'd have to like make it bigger or smaller or whatever. And the one shop we went into, the main guy looked at it he was like, I want a tattoo. This looks like a fun tattoo. Could I just do this now? Like, is he ready? I'm like, this is the answer. This is the shop I want. And that guy's no longer there, but his ex-wife runs the shop and I love her. Like, ⁓ I got, like my first tattoo was in 2013.
Michelle Renee (22:44)
Aww. That's the energy! That's the energy! Yeah, that's energy you want for sure.
Jake Apton (22:57)
And then went back to get Captain America in like 2017 and I walked in and she still knew me by name. I'm like, I haven't been in the shop in years. And she was still able to just like by memory, just call up my name and what way. And I love them. They've tattooed literally my entire family. my little brother, my mom and my ex-husband. Oh, I got tattoos on my shoulder. There's, I, so.
Michelle Renee (23:05)
Mwah.
That's awesome. I think
it'd be kind of fun to do a family tattoo. I wonder if my kids would be up for it because I don't know that either one of them have tattoos yet. I have a 28 year old and a 20 year old. And so.
Jake Apton (23:28)
Next time
you're in Albany if you want to tattoo a Vita. This isn't even an advertisement. Yeah, they're in Albany. ⁓
Michelle Renee (23:32)
Oh, so they're in Albany? Okay. Well, I'll be there in August.
Yeah. I might.
Jake Apton (23:37)
Highly recommend
it. I love Jada. She runs such a good shop.
Michelle Renee (23:40)
I might take you up on that connection. ⁓ Yeah, because it takes half the battle away from me of having to figure out who I would go to. ⁓ Okay, we're gonna play a little bit of We're Not Really Strangers, prime us a little bit and then decide if we wanna get into the sexy stuff. I do know that we have a mutual deep love for armpits.
Jake Apton (23:44)
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yes.
Michelle Renee (24:08)
And so I would love to find, not that we needed an excuse, but I'm just gonna let that be the teaser for later in our conversation. Cause I have a story, I can tell stories today. I don't know if you can see this, but I'm very bruised up from a play date a couple of days ago and it involves armpits. And so I will happily share a story. Okay, so the way this game works is like the first level is, well, that's in the wrong spot.
Jake Apton (24:20)
Okay.
Michelle Renee (24:36)
It's perception. So it's how we perceive each other. And because we are actually quite strangers, this should be interesting. So what I do is I'll read it and then we'll both take turns answering it for each other. And you can go first or second. I don't care. I've not to the people at home, we do not know what these cards are. And so I have not pre-thought and my brain works kind of slow sometimes. So we have all the time in the world. ⁓ What reality reality show do you think I'm most likely to binge watch?
Jake Apton (25:04)
Binge watch.
Michelle Renee (25:05)
You don't know me at all. I don't know how you would ever pick this.
Jake Apton (25:06)
I don't know yo.
I'm trying to even like which one would I be most likely to binge watch?
Michelle Renee (25:12)
I know, cause I'm like...
I'm going to pick a really old show for you that you won't even know what I'm talking about, I'm pretty sure. But because I see like a Bass Pro thing or something behind your head that shows me every once in like, maybe you seem like you might be the Hunter type.
Jake Apton (25:18)
Okay.
⁓
So honestly, I'll let me figure out if I can unblur mine. Cause it is a Bass Pro, but it says that's my ass bro stop.
Michelle Renee (25:29)
⁓ we can explain.
Okay, that helps so much. Okay. Are you a hunter type out of curiosity?
Jake Apton (25:38)
No,
so my dad was a hunter, my little brother was a hunter. I do not have the patience for it. Okay.
Michelle Renee (25:43)
You're not. Okay, then I'm going to pick a different thing. Okay.
Jake Apton (25:46)
⁓ I'm inclined to almost go somewhere like bachelor or like love is blind
Michelle Renee (25:53)
Much more love is blind than bachelor. Although I did dive into the golden bachelor because I was just curious how like between the batch golden bachelor and golden bachelor at how they would treat them differently. I am a cougar. My husband is 12 years younger than me. I highly, highly recommend ⁓ older women dating younger. And I was so not surprised that the bachelor they gave him a bunch of women that were
Jake Apton (25:55)
Okay.
Michelle Renee (26:21)
primarily younger than him. And with the bachelorette at they gave her primarily men that were older than her and it pissed me off because I thought like, this woman a, you know, mine was supposed to be catching release is what I like to say I wasn't supposed to keep him. He was just a good time I turned 40 and he was almost 28. And we just kept seeing each other and now we're married and we've been together for 10 years but I just think, I don't know, there's something.
Jake Apton (26:29)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (26:47)
For me being a sex educator coming into the dating world after my first marriage ended, older men were intimidated. Like heaven forbid I know more about sex than they do. And the younger men were just cocky enough to not care. so, yeah, I think ⁓ every woman of a certain age should try to go younger. For you, gosh.
Jake Apton (27:07)
See ya.
I will say there is a reality show I did recently binge watch because I did a porn parody of it. That was my impetus. usually don't watch, ⁓ usually don't, not really, it's too staged.
Michelle Renee (27:18)
okay. You're not a reality person. ⁓
Yeah, there's a lot of problems in that world, especially now that I'm, because of my work in the intimacy world, and there's a lot of the dating shows and stuff bring a lot of my colleagues onto them. I get the behind the stage stuff a little bit more. I don't know what to pick for you. Because I was going to go with the hunting thing. There was this old show. I'm just going to do this because I don't know what to pick for you. There was an old show years ago I watched on PBS that was almost like Ted Nugent reality.
Jake Apton (27:41)
Yeah.
Peace.
Michelle Renee (27:56)
Before I knew that Ted Nugent was a kind of terrible human being, I loved it. And I'm not a hunter. Like, I was so into it. But yeah, just random. I don't know how old I was at the time. I think I must have been in my early 20s, so late 90s, early 2000s. But that's what I would have picked because you just read that way. But if you're not a reality person, I don't have.
Jake Apton (28:23)
So I did recently binge watch the season of Traders. ⁓ Yeah, so actually, when I was in Vegas for the AVNs, ⁓ Men.com approached me and asked if I would be, they approached me and then they talked to my agent and ⁓ I couldn't fly home to New York because of the winter storm that was happening during the AVN as well.
Michelle Renee (28:29)
yeah, I've heard great things about it, but I haven't watched it, but you did a parody on it.
Yes, I remember that.
Jake Apton (28:50)
So instead of going to New York, I went to San Diego and filmed a Traders parody. ⁓ They very specifically wanted to cast me as like the Rob Roche character because I had my cowboy hat. So that was men.com. that, yeah. So, and it's just a little plug there. I got a Grabby nomination for best actor for that scene, which came out a of ago. So.
Michelle Renee (29:00)
Nice. And that was men.com? Is that what it was? Yeah, I hear that they do a lot of filming here. So yeah.
Yeah.
That's awesome. That's awesome. How long have you been
in the actual porn industry? Like outside of doing maybe, OnlyFans counts, but I feel like it's a little bit different.
Jake Apton (29:20)
So, yeah.
Yeah, it's it's Yeah, and then I can talk more about that too. Um, I signed on with my with my porn agent beginning of 2023, I believe That sounds right Yeah, um and I said maybe it's 2022 Yeah, so beginning 2022. Um, and I filmed a couple scenes here there, 3 22 and 23 I didn't film anything in 2024 and I was
Michelle Renee (29:29)
Yeah.
Jake Apton (29:53)
Yeah, I was like considering like ending my contract and just like leaving the industry. And then I had a stroke of luck and, ⁓ a couple of really big gigs pop up and then I got invited to go to the AVNs and now I'm fully, I'm about to dive head first into the industry full of time. it's. So yeah.
Michelle Renee (30:09)
That's awesome.
love that. Was that just kind of an extension from your time on OnlyFans or? Yeah.
Jake Apton (30:14)
Yeah. So
should the ⁓ guy that runs X room, he knows my agent. So he was able to set me up. like, Hey, you're already doing only fans. If you want to do anything professionally, like I have this contact. And I said, you know what? Like I'm very much a yes, man. I like to say yes to opportunities when they present themselves. So yeah, like the door was open and said, all right, cool. Let's go through it. Let's see where this, let's see where this door goes. So
Michelle Renee (30:37)
Yeah, was AVN super helpful for making the next? Yeah, it seemed like that was happening just all over the place.
Jake Apton (30:40)
absolutely. Yeah.
It's just the process of bumping elbows and talking to people and networking. Even now, there's so much that I filmed just with people I met in January at the AVN Expo. Or the Expo, if you will.
Michelle Renee (30:46)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. And then you were at the collab house with my friend Alex just a couple of weeks ago. There's like 30 guys there.
Jake Apton (30:59)
Yep, with Alex.
Yeah, I think there's 10 or 15 in the house and then they did, they were doing day passes. So creators and Chicago could access the house and film with us, which yeah, we had like 20 or 30 people, just opportunities to work with people in the house, which it was insane.
Michelle Renee (31:06)
Yeah.
It's so good. know Alex said he got a lot of stuff filmed and yeah.
Jake Apton (31:20)
It was so much fun too, like everybody there
was so nice and so chill and it was such a vibe.
Michelle Renee (31:24)
I saw a few of your ⁓ things that you had on TikTok that brought all that together because I hadn't seen anything from it yet. And then when I popped on your TikTok, I was like, I know what this is. I've heard all about it. That's awesome. I love overlap. OK, so this level two is connection. So are you missing anyone right now? And do you think they're missing you too?
Jake Apton (31:28)
Yeah.
That's a hard question. ⁓ See, I don't want to say I am missing them, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't. ⁓ Last year I had to break up. I broke up with my best friend. There's somebody that I thought was her best friend. ⁓ She turned out to be just a homophobic piece of shit. it was one of those like I, looking back, everybody was pointing out the red flags to me and I was blind enough to just not see them.
Michelle Renee (32:04)
Hmm.
Aww.
Jake Apton (32:17)
Like, well, when you look through those colored glasses, the red flags are just flags. ⁓
Michelle Renee (32:17)
Yeah.
Friend breakups
are hard. I don't think anybody gives them as much credit for them.
Jake Apton (32:25)
Yeah.
And going from like the like shadow. You have your inner circle, but I feel like you'll you'll always have like that number one friend like that person like that's at the center like that your go to person. And I had to cut her out. And I'm like, I have like this close friends, but I'm like, I'm nobody's best friend. Like, so it's a and I don't want to say I'm missing her because I don't want to say I miss her because I don't miss the way that
Michelle Renee (32:38)
Mm-hmm.
Jake Apton (32:51)
that she treated me and looking back, don't miss the way that she felt, but I miss having that person. And I almost like, wish I knew that she missed me, and I wish I thought that she missed me, but I also think that she's narcissistic enough to not and to think that she's on the right for everything. and ⁓ then my husband also left last year, we, which our relationship had been.
Michelle Renee (32:56)
person.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jake Apton (33:15)
Not in good place for a while, but he had a job opportunity and moved out last year. ⁓ And it's like our relationship was not in a healthy space, not in healthy spot, but I do miss having again, like having that connection, having that, that go to person and having like the extra body in the house. So, ⁓ and it's, I, I actually, so when, when I was in Chicago for the, ⁓ for the content house, I actually, that was my first time seeing my husband, my ex-husband, since he moved out.
Michelle Renee (33:30)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jake Apton (33:43)
And like it's our like our Relationship has like has healed enough, but we're still friends and we still care about each other it's just such a like a pain point for both of us to like Like we still care about each other. Let's we can't get past that and we left we kind of you know left on mutual terms, but Yeah
Michelle Renee (33:57)
Yeah.
Yeah. Do you identify
as monogamous, non-monogamous?
Jake Apton (34:05)
⁓ I said definitely not monogamous, non-monogamous. I, I haven't had a proper experience with, with polyamory. ⁓ I'm probably somewhere in that poly spectrum and definitely do like definitely ENM and like ethically non-monogamous for sex work stuff. But, ⁓ I'm also a bit of an independent person. So.
Michelle Renee (34:15)
Yeah.
Yeah, I only ask because I feel like I identify as non-monogamous. And I mean, I don't like to say I don't practice polyamory in the way that most people would like see it. But at the same time, if anybody knows me, they know that I definitely I love everybody. I'm in relationships with everybody. And so in that, I say for the person like that I miss
Jake Apton (34:44)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (34:55)
I love that I get to miss them very openly because my husband is not like, it's just part of our ecosystem that Michelle has feelings for everybody. And that it's just something that he's very used to. My previous partner before him, well, I was dating him while I started dating Paul, ⁓ Kyle, for anybody listening to this, know who I'm talking about. I love him to death. And I don't ever want to really date him again, but it doesn't mean I don't, ⁓
Jake Apton (35:06)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (35:24)
him and love the fact that we can still stay connected. And last I talked to him, I was trying to plot, plot, I was trying to plan a reconnection time with him in Michigan. And ⁓ he said that he just hopefully gets to come see me in San Diego. And I love that. And he'll be welcomed here in my house. And like, I even asked, like, I just want to make out with you. I miss making out with you. I don't really miss having sex with you, but I miss making out with you.
And I'm the person, again, so consent oriented. I'm like, hey, next time I see you, can we make out? And he's like, of course, you don't have to ask me that. And I'm like, no, but I do. Right. Like, I don't ever want to assume. I. Yeah, I miss him so much. I miss. I haven't seen Alex. Well, I hadn't seen Alex in a couple of weeks because I was gone on the road for two weeks and he messaged me on the plane and he's like, oh, no, like I had a really bad.
time at BWI Airport in Baltimore with the TSA crap. was barely got to my flight because I was in line for four hours. Like you can't check your bag until four hours. And then the TSA line was supposed to be five and a half at that point. And I was like, well, my luggage is going to get to San Diego, but I'm probably not. So anyways, I did make the flight and Alex and they were texting and he's like, I want to make sure that you're recovering well. I want you to sleep well tonight. Do you want?
Jake Apton (36:21)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Right.
Michelle Renee (36:45)
Can I get you some like gummies like something to help you sleep tonight? And I was like, I don't really need it. But if it gives me a chance to rendezvous with you in a parking lot somewhere before I go home from the airport, I'll take it. And so we met in a dark parking lot and exchanged some drugs and then and I hugged on him a few times and then headed home to sleep. Right. Because like, yeah, I I think having those people so
Jake Apton (36:47)
Thank
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (37:13)
So stinking important and I like to just do them many deep.
Jake Apton (37:14)
And that's one of the things I love about the the anime conventions I go to. Actually, very specifically, ColossalCon. It's in Sandusky, ⁓ Ohio. It's at the... yeah, yeah, okay. There's so many people that I only see at ColossalCon. There's also Colossal East, which is in the Poconos. ⁓
Michelle Renee (37:23)
Hmm, where's that at?
Okay, yeah, I'm from, I'm from West Michigan. So Sandusky is not outside of my, I'm like Cedar Point, yeah.
Mmm.
Jake Apton (37:41)
That's the Colossal is the weekend after Memorial Day right at the start of summer and then Colossal East is the weekend after Labor Day right at the end of summer. And there's so many people that I only see at those two events and I always describe Colossal on as like the best weekend I never remember. And it's it's an absolutely unforgettable weekend that I just never remember, which is the goal.
Michelle Renee (37:57)
Mmm.
Is it because I mean, so my husband runs in the furry world. He is not a furry, but all of his friends seem to be. And like he's off to Las Vegas this coming weekend for a furry convention. And he always says the really terrible joke about their party animals and that they drink a lot. ⁓ But I'm assuming in every of those genres that it's a lot of alcohol.
Jake Apton (38:05)
Okay.
⁓ yeah.
Yeah.
The, and so yeah, it's like, there's, so many people that I only see at those events and like, every day it's being able to like, to see them and like scream their name from like, from across, like across, you know, the convention venue. And then just like the biggest hug and then just like, you never see them again for four days.
Michelle Renee (38:40)
Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, I feel that.
Jake Apton (38:42)
If you do, you're
drunk or high to remember it, and it's a great time. I love it.
Michelle Renee (38:46)
My
favorite thing is reunions. love seeing people that I like, even in my work, I travel, I'm based in San Diego, I see a bunch of clients from when I lived in Baltimore, and I have some clients in Pittsburgh. And I love the reunion aspect of it, because I'm like, I'm like a golden retriever. I'm so excited that you're walking in the door. And I love just the familiar of of
Jake Apton (39:02)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (39:10)
of regular like people I haven't seen. So like I just went to a therapy conference. Now it's not nearly as fun as as y'all have at these other kinds of conferences. At least that's my take on it. But my gosh, my favorite part is the people coming by that I've seen every year for the last so many years, because it's just, ⁓ that makes me as almost as happy as watching the sunrise in the desert. Like it, both those things light me up and yeah, for sure.
Jake Apton (39:11)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
But no, it's, the ColossalCon is such, it's like, it's like, I miss every, all my friends that I see there, but also like we're in such constant communication. Like we're in like all the Discord servers and I have like group chats going just from, from these conventions. I know, we don't VR chat, but, but like I, so like when I, okay.
Michelle Renee (39:52)
Do you do any VR chat or anything like that?
My husband highly recommends it. Just throwing that out there.
Then you could have your, they have their fursonas, but you could have your different cosplay kind of digital outfits. And I don't know, I feel like I'm going to connect to a lot of people.
Jake Apton (40:02)
But I'm always ready to have some like.
Michelle Renee (40:13)
I'm gonna try, I'm curating this last, this level three reflections to something I think we can actually answer. I don't know how you would know these things. That's the problem. We're not really strangers, but we are really strangers. Okay, just a second. I mean, this one works. In one word, describe how you feel right now.
Jake Apton (40:17)
Go for it.
I'm really sorry.
I usually have really good emotional intelligence. I've been working on that. So I'm really trying to do the analysis and run a diagnosis and how am I feeling? What's that word?
Michelle Renee (40:43)
You know how you said to me like, don't threaten me with a good time when I said you could come on this? I'm like, don't make me swoon over you emotional intelligence. Jeez. I love this.
Jake Apton (40:46)
Yeah.
We're in therapy. It's great.
Um, in one word, probably have to say, and this is going to sound like it's not like a cop out, but I'm going to have to say tired. Um, just the, it's, know I kind of see like 2025 was just an emotionally exhausting year. Um, and then I was also at PAX this weekend. So today is like my big recovery day. So I'm definitely in that like tired. Actually I had therapy this morning. I came home and I took a nap and I had to wake up like,
I woke up because I'm like, I have 15 minutes before I have to meet me with Michelle. I'm like, I really 10 minutes for five more minutes.
Michelle Renee (41:16)
See
Well, thanks for being on time.
Yeah, no, I appreciate like your your ⁓ just everything about communicating with you has been really easy. You're super like relatable, which is funny because my word is nervous. I came into this this call today going, I don't know what we're going to talk about. I don't really know you. And I have kind of a rule about kind of know the people that I have on here. But I'm like, but I mean, this is a fun like
almost like an experiment. so I'm like, let's just see how it goes. so.
Jake Apton (41:51)
⁓ I love to yap
too. Like in my free time, I'm streaming on Twitch. it's like, that's even when I have people on chat, there's been times that like I've had, you know, 23 people watching and nobody's talking in chat. So I just have to sit there and like fill the dead space. So I'm, I'm really good at yap.
Michelle Renee (41:56)
Have fun!
I've
monologued a few episodes where I just talk to myself and it's amazing how long I can talk just on a topic. does the streaming on Twitch help with any of your sales, like parasocial relationship wise?
Jake Apton (42:13)
Yeah.
Sometimes my
like ⁓ Twitch and like even like TikTok live, they have such strict ⁓ community guidelines. So I can't openly say like, ⁓ I have only fans like go over there and like go something like, I can't openly say that. I can tease it. can like allude to it, but I can't outright say that.
Michelle Renee (42:38)
Mm-hmm.
What about
the other direction? you send any people from, cause that wouldn't make a lot of sense to send people from OnlyFans to Twitch and have them get free access.
Jake Apton (42:50)
I've in the past I've tried
like I've even like put on like on Twitter, Twitter like Helm like ⁓ now live on Twitter now like you know XYZ. ⁓ But then they get in there they get in the chat like like you know take off your shirt show us your you know show us your whatever and even like like twitch at twitch and tik tok live don't allow like any discussion of feet like I got banned from tik tok live for for the day because I like
Michelle Renee (42:57)
⁓ yeah.
⁓
It's not the right spot.
Jake Apton (43:14)
showed somebody my like, they're asking what I was wearing on my feet and I showed them the slipper I was wearing. Like I took it off and said that I'm wearing this slipper. And I got a community guidelines strike on TikTok because I was talking about feet and they don't joke about that. ⁓ the promoting it the other way is just such a risky business that I can't.
Michelle Renee (43:34)
Yeah, no, I, ⁓
the that's crazy. So I couldn't go on there. So let me back up. I love giving my inner child things that make her happy. And my most recent inner child love is color changing toenail polish. And so I clearly can't go on and talk about my excitement for my toenail polish. That's, I hate the world that we live in sometimes, Jake. I just like,
Jake Apton (43:54)
Yeah.
Like on one hand, on one hand, get it because I feel like of all of the non-sexual organs that are sexualized, feet is like top of the list. But, but then armpits are right there and like those aren't policed as much. yeah. I recently, so actually the friends I was staying with in Boston, I was sharing one of the interviews that I did with like at the GAYVNs and my, a good straight friend, he was one of my, one of my closest friends. I was like a groomsman in their wedding.
Michelle Renee (44:01)
I don't know.
Okay, let's talk about armpits. Let's just not hold back anymore, Jake.
Jake Apton (44:26)
He was like armpits, like what is it with armpits? like, how do you not like armpits? And even his wife jumped in and was like, no, armpits are sexy. Like, I had to explain to my straight friend, like armpits are a thing.
Michelle Renee (44:31)
Well, and I first...
learned about engaging in armpits in a erotic way from gay porn, because like it's my favorite genre of porn for a long time. I go through all sorts of different porn genres. It's kind of like I need the porn roulette kind of thing and figure out what's going to be the thing that does it for me today. Yeah, but I'm a big fan of anything that's more authentic. So I'm always in the amateur side generally. But
Jake Apton (44:39)
Yeah.
same. It's yeah, it's very much like, know, spin the wheel of like, what is it like?
Michelle Renee (45:02)
Gay porn always felt more authentic to me than anything else that I was watching. And so I saw y'all engaging in some armpit licking and I was like, I'm down for that. And now I have such a thing for like opening straight men up to armpit licking. Some of them love it. Some of them don't. My preference. heard, so you brought this up in one of your interviews and it was, you also mentioned the thing about
Jake Apton (45:08)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (45:31)
hating the taste of deodorant. so then I was like, I said to Alex, do you think that I said there should be like an edible deodorant? And I looked it up and there are I haven't tried any of them yet. But I do feel like this could be a thing that that I would love to to introduce the rest of the world to like
Jake Apton (45:33)
yeah. ⁓
Are there? Okay.
Michelle Renee (45:53)
Licking armpits, I just get so into it. And then this guy that I played with this weekend, he also enjoyed being bit there because he likes to be bit. I tried it because I don't think he'd had his armpits licked before. But since he liked biting, also bit him. yeah, it was a very lovely time. And I thank the gay porn world for ⁓ introducing me to the concept of armpits.
Jake Apton (46:02)
Okay.
It wasn't
even a thing that I knew I was into it like I I didn't not that I could even tell you it's the first time I even like you know dove into somebody's pits, but it's a very like spur-of-the-moment thing and for me it feels very primal of like Like I'm like my first step is always gonna be in nipples like I I love I suck and biting like I love having to something in my mouth It's like I always go for the nipples just cuz like mine are fairly sensitive. So I'm gonna go right there
Michelle Renee (46:33)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jake Apton (46:47)
And then I'm just going to dive headfirst into your pits.
Michelle Renee (46:52)
I usually run
these questions by Alex. I know from my own experience, is primarily, no, my preference is to only play with queer men, but occasionally a straight one walks through my door. I find that there feels like this like disconnection between them and their nipples. And I don't know if it's because of they've turned them into meaning something that's more on the feminine side of life.
But just like I have a hard time getting them to make fucking noises. Like they're all mute. like, I'm curious if you think that that's like conditioning or if if you think that in your world, you're like, you know, I have a hard time. A of men don't have sensitive even gay men don't have sensitivity to their nipples.
Jake Apton (47:24)
Yeah.
I need
I have like there's been actually a handful of times I've been made hook up and like just sucking on guys nipples and he's like, Hey, just, know, like that's not doing anything for me. I'm like, okay, well, like, let me get my film. Like I'll wrap my part up. I'll like, okay. Like, let me just, right. It's for me as long as you don't mind it. Like if you're, if it's a net zero for you, like if you're not hitting it, then okay. Like I'll do it just to get my fill and then we'll move on. But, this is something for me. Like I like having mine licked and I like, you know,
Michelle Renee (47:56)
It's for me, not for you.
Yeah.
Jake Apton (48:10)
you know, nibbling on other people's. So I'm gonna go right there and then I'm gonna go to your pits I have learned to check for deodorant.
Michelle Renee (48:11)
Yeah.
still in the the horniest of moments Jake I will still go in and I will regret it but I don't I make a choice I make a I make a an informed choice and sometimes I just go well yeah
Jake Apton (48:21)
Yeah.
You
Yeah for me is it's it's I'm more like the taste ⁓ because some guys like their their sweat gets really bitter and I I don't know if it's a like if it's like workout sweat verse like sitting like sitting in direct sunlight sweat verse like I Don't know what level what level what type of sweat or what layer of sweat it is But some guys like their sweat just tastes really bitter I don't like that, but some guys like they have like the right the right sound the right flavor and like yes, give me
Michelle Renee (48:54)
I feel like there's a scientific study in my future of definitely needing more ⁓ trials on this because I've never, like, if I get lucky to not have a person with deodorant, like my husband, he knows, he'll like, if he thinks there's sexy times coming, he will purposely not put deodorant on. And I like a good musky.
Jake Apton (48:56)
Perhaps.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (49:17)
Like give me your, don't, if you came in smelling like whatever, I'd be like, I'd rather smell that. Every one time Alex came over and we were going to cuddle and he's like, just when I got to go wash up my armpits. Cause I didn't put you on or not. I'm like, don't, don't do it. Not that I planned on licking his armpits. I mean, it could happen. ⁓ but I'm like, I like that smell. Like you don't have to, you don't have to cover that up for me, but I've never, I just don't have a big enough sample size to say that I know that sweat tastes different.
Jake Apton (49:22)
Yeah.
Right.
Michelle Renee (49:44)
Now I'm gonna find out. You've inspired me.
Jake Apton (49:46)
And there's a thousand
variables it could be. could be anything from from like if they're smoking cigarettes to like, you know, what type of sweater, like how they got their sweater, like, right. that there's, cause I also have, I have scientific background too. So it's, yeah, like that's, there's so many variables that it could be.
Michelle Renee (49:51)
Yeah.
Well yeah, what did you eat?
Yeah,
yeah. Well, that gives me, you give me a project and that will be my new, I'll look for volunteers to let me break there. ⁓ Usually it's a virginity issue too. Like they've never had their armpit licked and I'm like, I love taking virginities. That's such a great, it used to be prostates. It used to be that a lot of ⁓ guys would be with me and they're like, you love prostate play so much.
Jake Apton (50:15)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (50:27)
I want to know why you love it so much. Would you do this with me? Now I've learned to say, have you ever eroticized your prostate? Because if you haven't, me touching it isn't magic. You have to have already kind of built up something around it. And then I'm not going to enjoy it if you're like, kind of like the guy that says my nipples don't really have a lot of feeling.
Jake Apton (50:40)
Right.
Right.
Michelle Renee (50:53)
For me to touch your prostate, it's not like sucking on a nipple, where I can enjoy it even if you're not enjoying it or whatever. I just, yeah, I've learned to ask more questions and be like, yeah, if you haven't really got into this already, I'm not gonna be the magic person that turns that light on for you.
Jake Apton (51:00)
Yeah.
Right.
Michelle Renee (51:11)
Speaking of which, you probably didn't meet him. I have a coffee date this week with somebody who calls himself the Prostate Prophet and I met him at AVN. He wrote a book about prostate play. I have more information come Thursday, but his name is Eric Nguyen. Yeah. So who knows? ⁓ Okay.
Jake Apton (51:13)
Yes.
Hey, yeah, hi.
I'm Flickr.
Michelle Renee (51:35)
We're going to do sexy questions and we got sidetracked by armpit love. And also, if I try any of this deodorants, I will let you know. Okay.
Jake Apton (51:37)
Let's go.
All right.
Michelle Renee (51:46)
considering that you are my guest. This is such a dumb question. I'm gonna say it anyways before I put it back. If your camera roll went public, would you be able to run for president? And I joke that my my son wants to be in politics. And I'm like, you do know your mother's a whore. you're never gonna like the background check thing. You're gonna have to go in super confident in what it is and what it isn't.
Jake Apton (51:55)
In this day and age?
Ugh.
Right.
Michelle Renee (52:14)
And I apologize for that somewhat. And at the same time, I don't because I wish we could just get over it. But yeah.
Jake Apton (52:21)
I said the dark joke I want to make and I feel like it's inappropriate. But like, was just like, I don't have any children in my in my photo gallery. So obviously, I can't run for politics. But that's all that's all I feel about making that.
Michelle Renee (52:31)
Well, that's a whole other thing. I saw
some stuff. Yeah, no, I mean, it's a whole different day and age that joke used to mean something else. And currently, it's a whole different thing. Yeah, it's it's dark times. Let's find a different one. This is like single X, so not super, super X. ⁓ What you what assumptions do people make about your sexuality? And are they right or wrong?
Jake Apton (52:40)
Yeah, I'm...
Yeah. ⁓
Yeah.
So many people assume I'm straight So many people assume I'm straight and it's I'm like and I know as you can say this earlier But like when I'm in the club, I'm too straight when I'm outside of the club. I'm not straight enough and I just I That's I don't know because I ain't friends of I have had friends you know or new friends meet me is like, oh like I thought you were gay I thought you were straight until you open your mouth and then like just the way you carry yourself I knew you're you're gay. I'm like, what does that mean? Like but yeah
Michelle Renee (53:01)
yeah.
Yeah.
That's interesting. Yeah, does that
affect your dating life at all?
Jake Apton (53:29)
Not really, ⁓ just like even in the gay community, like some people like masc people, some people don't like masc people. like that's not really something I can like really drive or, know, I like, no aspect of me is performative. Actually, ain't stepping on stage performing as performer, but whatever. but even like, yeah.
Michelle Renee (53:49)
I mean, professional Jake can
look very similar to non-professional Jake. I don't think I have a different personality whether I'm working or not working. And I know some of my colleagues that do have a different, like a whole different, what it feels like to me, a whole different persona.
Jake Apton (54:00)
Yeah.
When I started
stripping, one of my, like one of the best pieces of advice I got was to treat it like acting. ⁓ like when I get to the club, I put on a character and when I get, know, when I leave the club, I take that character off. And I, like, I was a theater kid in high school. And then actually when I was, when I was in college, I was a school mascot and it's very, it's mascotting and stripping is so similar. It's just opposite ends of the spectrum. Like it loops back around. Cause you're like this larger than life persona and you have to like, it's all body language. have to like, you know, perform to the back of the room.
Michelle Renee (54:29)
It's all a circle.
Jake Apton (54:35)
that type of acting and the the character of Jake that I built up it's it's who I like that's the the Venn diagram is almost a circle but there's like the that bit of me that I keep for when I'm home and that bit of me that's only out at the club but even like it's yeah yeah I would say definitely works
Michelle Renee (54:49)
Yeah, well, it's still work, right? I
mean, the difference for me is like, okay, if you were in my personal life versus my professional life is that I have my own needs. It's not just what's for the client, right? And like, I think that throws people for a loop. I tell the story sometimes about a client that was like,
Jake Apton (55:05)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (55:15)
super love fest. We had all the love in the room. The oxytocin was flowing. Great, great, great time together. I always would say don't sign any contracts after our time together because we're both in a very different headspace. And ⁓ then I felt like things were shifting a little bit. I was afraid there was going to be a request for
I just saw there was something that was gonna, I feel like be a complicated question at some point. And so we played this little game so I could help him be ready to hear a no, because I think it's important to like, I want people to know how to hear no, they don't necessarily get that kind of training in the world. And the question was, could I take you to dinner? And I said,
because we're just playing this like hypothetical, but in this space it was in this round, it was asked for something you really want and I'm going to give you a real answer, but we're not going to do any of it. That was the rules. And I said, I need more information. Are you taking me as a client or as a friend? And he goes, well, what's the difference? And I was like, when I'm with you as a client, you have all of my attention. My ADHD doesn't exist anymore.
Jake Apton (56:13)
Yeah. ⁓
Michelle Renee (56:22)
Somehow I'm able to stay really present with you because there's this time frame that my somehow my body understands that I am in session from this time to this time and it's all about you. If I'm going out with my friends, it's not the same thing. I'm checking my phone. I'm, you know, I'm multitasking and he's like, ⁓ yeah, I might not even like that version of you. Yeah, you might not. Yeah.
Jake Apton (56:39)
Yeah, no, I 100%.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (56:47)
It's, it's, I'm, I'm, I'm still very much the same. It's just how I show up is different as a professional, just boundary wise. So, yeah.
Jake Apton (56:56)
It's
yeah, so there's yeah, like you didn't similar at the club like because I have my scream tattoo so every now and then people like will ask me about scream and like I could give a TED talk about the Scream movies. I love Scream. There's so much that I could just like go into and some people have have triggered that that dialogue response option for for me. And like that's that's also just me in real life. Like if if I'm wearing a scream shirt and scream t-shirt and people ask about it, I'll just go into scream. I will launch right up on into my TED talk.
Michelle Renee (57:26)
Are you, is that your special interest? Are you, are you neurodivergent? Jake, do you have any diagnosis?
Jake Apton (57:26)
⁓
Yeah,
pretty, your Scream is one of my special interests. Like that is my, my AuDHD special interest.
Michelle Renee (57:35)
Yeah,
I identify ADHD also. I've only got technically ADHD diagnosis, but I don't resonate.
Jake Apton (57:38)
Yeah.
Coverstation was having
with one of my friends the other day, was like the instances of ADHD and autism and just AuDHD in the sex work sphere. That Venn Diagram is a circle. ⁓
Michelle Renee (57:53)
It feels high. Yeah, no, that
was the, that's what I picked up on by being involved in all these little micro conversations with Alex was I was like, Oh, well, a, that's why I'm really comfortable here. think that was one of my first signs that I also might, uh, be a little AuDHD or any of the, any of the neurodivergent side of it. I wasn't sure. I just, I came home from a thing, a workshop years ago and I said,
Jake Apton (58:08)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (58:22)
Gosh, I was so glad there was these two autistic folks in the room and they asked the most interesting questions. I'm so glad they were there. And honestly, they're the people I felt the most comfortable with. ⁓ you know, it's like the slowly unraveling of like, no, those are my people.
Jake Apton (58:36)
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm like diagnosed ADHD. The, you know, the autism part of it. I, ⁓ I'm not diagnosed, but I am heavily peer reviewed.
Michelle Renee (58:47)
Yes, that's a great
way to put it. I think I saw a shirt like that. Like I'm not diagnosed, but I have to ask this one marketing team that we were with at the psychotherapy network or conference that I was just at, they had some really cute shirts that were of that similar vein of like, I'm not diagnosed officially, but yeah.
Jake Apton (58:52)
Yeah.
But the math math.
Michelle Renee (59:11)
The math math app. I get it. And sometimes it's funny because with clients, they'll be like, so do you have any like any neurodivergence that I should know about? And they'll be like, no. And I'm like, okay. I just okay. I just want to know if you identify that way or not, because I'm not going to place that label on you. like, if you do, that I can be really open about it. If not, I'm not going to say that. But like, I have the sniffer.
Jake Apton (59:21)
I get your chart?
Yeah.
There's,
There was a porn star I know in New York City and I was collabing with him the one night I went to his apartment and walked in and the one wall of his bedroom was just floor to ceiling board games. Like not Monopoly or include, but like, you know, the depths of like, I funded this on Kickstarter and like, there's only like 10 copies of this in the world. I'm like that level. I'm like, so. ⁓
Michelle Renee (59:52)
Yeah. So Chad, so, so Chad Rex, the
cutie that I attached myself to at AVN. ⁓ So he, messages me ⁓ like the Friday after I got home from AVN, he's like, Hey, my partner is going to be filming with ⁓ men.com in San Diego this weekend. So I'm to be in town. We could hang out while he's filming. And I was like, how cool is that? Cause I only got you in little snippets at AVN.
And so we got to hang out and I said to my husband, my husband is so cool. I fucking love him. I said, Hey, so Chad's coming over. Could you do me a solid and like vacate? And he's like, I go, want to share him with you. really do. But the first time I just want him for myself, was like, Michelle's been a really good girl. She needs this. This will be great.
He and I said, but stay and meet him first so you guys can get a vibe check or whatever. And, ⁓ my God, they hit it off with report games. And I'm just like, of course, of course, of course. I'm like, I bring all the nerdy boys to the yard, even though I'm not as nerdy as they are.
Jake Apton (1:00:51)
for us. Yep.
yeah, some might be working.
so many
of the people I met in Vegas, because there's even a a couple of like female porn stars that I met that, again, hearts are gold, they were the nicest people and after a brief conversation, I'm like, all right, we're all on the same team here.
Michelle Renee (1:01:09)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, no, I got to hang out in the models lounge a little bit with Alex. no, just I was at that place. I really was like, so I work a lot in platonic world. But my heart is I'm a super big sex geek and like also do a lot of work, just do a lot of sexual trauma recovery work. But it doesn't allow me necessarily to hang out with ⁓ the like the.
Jake Apton (1:01:16)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:01:40)
I don't know, the sex world is not where Cuddlist like puts ourselves in in like, we wouldn't have a booth at AVN, but man, am I trying to figure out how to get us at AVN because I just, I was like, my God, these are just, I'd rather be in these spaces than anywhere else. Everybody's just, I don't know the right word.
Jake Apton (1:02:00)
I was really prepared for so many big egos at AVN and
that was just not the experience. you know, even the people that were nominated and won awards were just so down to earth. It was such a good experience. And I actually was talking to my friends, even like my ex-husband saying like the atmosphere at AVN was the same atmosphere that I absolutely love about Colossal Con and the other anime cons I go to. It's just such a warm and friendly atmosphere. Like the experience of like meeting somebody like...
Michelle Renee (1:02:05)
No.
Jake Apton (1:02:27)
in the elevator just once, like bumping into them again and again and again on the con floor and then by the end of the day you're like, you're just my best friend now. Like that's such an experience. that's, I thought was specific to anime cons and it's just conventions. It's just that like we're gonna keep bumping into each other. So now we're friends.
Michelle Renee (1:02:33)
Yeah, yeah, we should.
I think it's
a common overlap. And then like you said, if the Venn diagram turns into a circle, which does in so many different kinds of communities, there's just such an overlap with the nerddom of whatever your nerddom is with porn, with BDSM, with poly with... ⁓
Jake Apton (1:03:01)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:03:09)
like a Renaissance fair world, like all these different, whatever your special interest is, there is a lot of overlap with all these spaces just inherently.
Jake Apton (1:03:12)
Yeah.
Yeah,
so actually I'm the thing is a good segue. I know I know I was teasing this when we were discussing like what we were going to discuss the I think the one of the big differences between specifically colossal con and the avn expo is like now they're both horny but like avn felt very professionally horny and colossal cons specifically is very like Feral horny. Um, and Well, you get what I mean though
Michelle Renee (1:03:29)
Mm-hmm.
Professional horny and feral horny. Love this.
I do,
yeah.
Jake Apton (1:03:51)
Colossal con, specifically because of that con, there is a deep, deep lore. Like this goes back almost 10 years at this point of cum in the hot tub. So.
Michelle Renee (1:04:01)
⁓ I mean, that's
what everybody's fear is about public hot tubs in general, but.
Jake Apton (1:04:05)
So
the at Colossalcon they have a night swim where they open up the indoor water park at the hotel from 11 p.m. to 3 a.m. It's 21 plus only and it's like, but they also have big like they have they set a DJs up at the wave pool and they have like this big rave in the wave type thing. And the big draw is the this hot tub that has a swim up bar in it. And according to lore, I this was like the year before I started going. So I don't actually know if this is substantiated or if this is just room or whatever.
but somebody had sex on the hot tub and came. And that moment has now become such a core meme of the group and such a shitpost in the community of it that they now have cum wrestling.
Michelle Renee (1:04:46)
yes, okay, I'm like, what did we not talk about yet? Cum wrestling. I'm so curious and my husband was so curious.
Jake Apton (1:04:48)
Yeah. Yeah. Come wrestling. So, um,
and I know the guy that runs it and puts it on and I was talking to him other day. I'm like, what do you use for the cum Cause there's one like actually, um, I was talking to with Derek cage. Um, one of the big, big gay porn star that he, yeah. Um, we're saying about it. Cause I was saying I was at PAX and he was texting me. So I was like, Oh, Hey, what's up? Um, and cause he's also bit of a nerd. Cause then he died.
Michelle Renee (1:05:04)
I know that name.
Jake Apton (1:05:14)
you mentioned like that he used to go like LAN fest and everything like I kept like they have LAN at a PAX but I thinking about that I'm like yeah you'd think that like and like all the guys that do the cum wrestling are straight like they have there are girls that do it but it's mostly straight guys that stand up for cum wrestling yeah
Michelle Renee (1:05:24)
Okay.
I mean, is this just lube wrestling? Like, because to me, I know that my
favorite lube I also happen to say looks a lot like cum.
Jake Apton (1:05:37)
I have a bottle of cum lube right here from Fort Trough. But the guy that runs it, I asked him, it's ⁓ honey powder. And he has a specific link that he goes, he gets it in bulk. it's, yeah, it's the same thing as jello wrestling They just, they make it white and milky and it looks like cum. And it's just such a, like the fact that it's gotten to the point where it's not even sexualized anymore. Like,
Michelle Renee (1:05:55)
I love that this is an event.
Jake Apton (1:06:04)
in the context of the con, like that just openly discussing cum like that isn't even done in a sexual way, it's done in a jokey way.
Michelle Renee (1:06:12)
Well, once you start talking about it enough, loses its sexual appeal anyways. Like I think about, we had a friend here in San Diego that liked to cook with cum yeah, just, anything that you do in a much more normalized fashion, it de-eroticizes it. Just like I go to a lot of nudist spaces.
Jake Apton (1:06:14)
absolutely, yeah.
Yeah. ⁓ huh.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:06:33)
Right. And sometimes my husband will say, I forget to eroticize my friends because like, just cause they're nude doesn't like it's everything's been pulled apart that it's no longer this taboo. Awesome.
Jake Apton (1:06:33)
Mm-hmm.
yeah.
I'm going to send you a picture of the cum wrestling because I know I have one saved
on my phone. Um, and I know I did it recently too. Where is it? There it is.
Michelle Renee (1:06:54)
Are you sending it to my Instagram? Yeah.
Jake Apton (1:06:55)
Yeah, just send this on Instagram.
Michelle Renee (1:06:57)
that's fun.
I was going to do, I mean, the blow up pools work well for lots of things. I was going to do a sploshing party, do know, a food play. So they like to use those pools for that too. But I had a friend, we were in Vegas for AASECT which is the sex therapy conference. And we were set up to have our room kind of, I brought, I had plastic. was going to look like a Dexter prep.
Jake Apton (1:07:05)
Okay. Okay, yeah.
yeah, yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:07:24)
Like,
and we were going to do all this food play using those inside those pools inside the room and we ended up going to burlesque instead, but all good. Less cleanup.
Jake Apton (1:07:31)
Yeah.
Yeah, it's always fun to like, I like I love how sexual it is. Like, I started comparing like comparing what should be apples and oranges. And it's like, no, they're both just, they're both just sex.
Michelle Renee (1:07:45)
And I yeah, and I love that it doesn't turn men off from straight men from wrestling straight men just because it's come or supposed to become. Yeah, I think it takes a special group of people, though, too. I don't know. I feel like the average. I don't know, the average straight dude isn't ready to tackle. Those weirdness is.
Jake Apton (1:07:50)
Yeah.
Yeah, like they just lean into the joke. It's like, I'm covered with comic.
Also, it's
also such a safe space. I know it's not usually how safe space is usually used, but it's such a safe environment to just be kind of weird and crazy like that. yeah, can wrestle in cum and nobody's going to accuse you of being gay or say, oh, that's okay that you did that. It's like, no, you're doing it for the shitpost. You're doing it for the joke.
Michelle Renee (1:08:19)
Yeah, that's what mean.
It's not going to be the guys I was just talking about. was somebody recently when I was in the dating world on like, OK, Cupid and stuff back in the day. And again, I love prostate stuff. And so I would get these guys that would be like, would you peg me? And I'm like, at that time, I was a no because I not done it yet. And I didn't want to do it for the first time with somebody I didn't know because I would say I don't peg on the first date because it was vulnerable because I didn't know what I was doing. And I didn't want to do that with somebody I didn't know. Like I wanted somebody I could work that that stuff out with.
Jake Apton (1:08:31)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's better.
Michelle Renee (1:08:57)
But how many times did I hear, ⁓ does that make me gay?
Jake Apton (1:09:02)
It's like, no, if you're not a man, then no, you're not gay. Congrats.
Michelle Renee (1:09:03)
You answer that question for me.
There's a lot of things that'll make you gay. Having something in your butt is not the thing that will make you gay. Yeah. That's the question I never want to hear again.
Jake Apton (1:09:09)
Yeah.
think masculinity is just so
fragile that... And even if you are gay, it's like, okay, if it does make you gay, then okay, you're still you.
Michelle Renee (1:09:22)
Just like if you're gay and you have sex with a woman, does it make you straight?
Jake Apton (1:09:25)
Mm-hmm. That's...
Michelle Renee (1:09:27)
Have you got to my episode with Alex where we had the sex experiment?
Jake Apton (1:09:30)
I listened to the episode you sent and I started to listen to the follow up. But I didn't get too far into that one.
Michelle Renee (1:09:34)
Okay. Yeah.
Well, I think it's funny. I think it's hilarious. ⁓ So for me, what assumptions do people make about my sexuality? so I, yeah, I identify as asexual. And so people either assume that means that I don't like sex at all ⁓ or that I'm not actually asexual. It's one of those two things. It's like, you're clearly not asexual because you talk about sex all the time.
Jake Apton (1:09:46)
I'm here to solve this question.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:10:03)
I have a fair amount of it. I'm calling this, you can steal this. I got this from a client. This is 20 20 Sex instead of 2026. Cause I'm in my, turned 50 in October and I had taken pretty substantial break from being too open in my relationship. It was much more, I just need some, I don't know, levelness in my life. And I've just, I feel like every time you...
Jake Apton (1:10:10)
I like that.
Michelle Renee (1:10:29)
Add new people. You never know if you're going to fuck something up. And I was, I was not taking a lot of risks. And so this year, ⁓ one of my words on my vision board is risky, but it's, I'm sturdy and risky. And so this year I have been living my best return to slut life that I can possibly possibly do. So, all right. That was that row.
Jake Apton (1:10:43)
Okay.
Love that.
Michelle Renee (1:11:44)
this is interesting. If you could thank one sexual partner from your past, who would it be and what would you thank them for?
Yeah.
I have mine if you want me to go first.
Jake Apton (1:11:54)
Yeah, I'll let you go first on this one.
Michelle Renee (1:11:56)
Okay.
And I've probably told this story before I'm here, but I dated a man for maybe six weeks, way back post divorce. And he loved my thighs. They're my least confident body part. And he would be like,
my God, I just love your thighs. And he was just so consistent in that messaging. It really, really was quite the gift of just letting him, letting that be true and like letting that sink into me. I think it really helped me with my body image. So that's who I would thank Don't remember his name, but that's who I would thank
Jake Apton (1:12:42)
I think is most my sexual partners like if if they're if they were good enough for me to to thank them then I've gone back for more and I'm still Occasionally going to that well But there was a guy I dated briefly end of college like right in that window um I thought we had incredible chemistry and one of the first people that I really like You know fell fell for um, but he gave me a the one time we were playing and he gave me a hickey like right on like that
Michelle Renee (1:12:50)
Yeah.
Jake Apton (1:13:10)
tendon between like, like at the top of your leg. And I like, I'm really, when he was like, he was sucking on that part, like that section. I remember I was screaming. was driving me wild. Like I knew it one of those like, don't stop. But also I'm going to like make it as hard as possible for you to stay there because like, and I'm ready for the length of the hickeys. Like the next couple of days, like it was just such a tender spot. And I've like, I've tried to give other guys that hickey and I haven't been successful.
Michelle Renee (1:13:13)
Uh-huh.
Jake Apton (1:13:37)
And nobody since then has been able to to do that in the same spot, but like hmm
Michelle Renee (1:13:43)
Yeah, I call them their lovely souvenirs, right? They're the they stay even if they're even if you keep like just feeling them like like oh Whether it's like, I don't know. Are you into fisting?
Jake Apton (1:13:43)
that.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Slowly getting into it. I've only experienced receiving. I posted...
Michelle Renee (1:14:00)
as a receiver or top.
Okay. So, you know, you'll know this when I say when you're a little tender the next day and
you're like, I remember what happened there. Yeah. That's when I was like, so, you know, the product that the Alex works for is Dr. Tush. ⁓ I was really bummed that I didn't bring any with me because I was like, this is my perfect test case uses. So it got applied a day late, but that's or two days late.
Two days late, three days late. I don't know what day it was. I think I got fisted on Thursday and I didn't get to put it on until Saturday night. But I was still feeling it. The stretch stays.
Jake Apton (1:14:45)
Yeah, no, I posted one. So I have a rule on my only fans like if you buy me a toy then like you get like the first video I make with it like that's exclusively yours. And somebody sent me a it was a double dildo So it was like two penises kind of fused together like this. That I think the guy said, you know, they were like they were like this. Yeah. So I had to figure out how I was to like
Michelle Renee (1:14:53)
Yeah.
you mean they were like lined up next to each other rather than just... ⁓ okay. Okay.
Jake Apton (1:15:11)
Because at that point I was like, we're so were so puckered up tight. ⁓ so I worked with the local Dom to like to stretch me out and it took a better part of a year to be able to take that toy just because the shape and texture of it. ⁓ but I, I'm still working with him and took his, you know, I got the full muppet treatment for the first time and we recorded it and I put like a 10 second clip of it on OnlyFans. Like this is the first time that I was actually able to take his entire wrist and like do the whole thing. Right.
Michelle Renee (1:15:23)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jake Apton (1:15:39)
Within like hours of posting that video, my agent was calling me and three different directors were calling me being like, I didn't know you could do that. I'm like, whoa, pump the brakes here. That was the first time. And now.
Michelle Renee (1:15:49)
So is that kind of, you
know what, do you want that to be what you're known for? Your specialty?
Jake Apton (1:15:52)
No, no, that's I don't like
⁓ yeah that's all I posted that video about two weeks ago And I now have a scene. ⁓ I'm waiting on test results, but I have a scene next week and tom springs That's a fisting scene. I'm like guys. I told you like give me six months for this
Michelle Renee (1:16:07)
Yeah, I've always wanted my
husband's never been down for the training that would be required. I have a like there is a guy that used to live here in San Diego that had giant hands. I remember the first time I met him, I was like, hold your hand up to mine. And it was just such a like difference. And ⁓ and we had a play date. And somehow.
Jake Apton (1:16:22)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:16:32)
he managed to get completely in and I was like, I didn't know if I was horrified at the fact that I was able to do that or patting myself on the back that I was able to do that. Like I had such a this like, I'm not sure if I want to know that I can take all of this and also, wow, I took all of that. Like we did this like debrief the next day. He's like, I've never had anybody be able to take my whole fist. And I was like, how do I feel about that? I could never do it again. I would never do it twice. Cause he was, it was not, it was
Jake Apton (1:16:44)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:17:01)
He's a sadist. was way too fast. I would call it slightly violent. I was thrilled that I managed it, but at the same time, I would never sign up for another attempt at it. It was no.
Jake Apton (1:17:07)
Mmm.
I
feel like it's got to be some degree easier with vaginas than with anuses
Michelle Renee (1:17:22)
I think it probably is. I've never
done anal fisting for myself, only vaginal, but like, yeah, we can push babies out. Like technically it has capacity to do a whole lot of stuff. And like, can't say, I've seen some wild stuff, but.
Jake Apton (1:17:34)
Yeah.
I know like with, with,
with, with anal play, like there's so much muscle control that goes into it. And it's not even like muscles that you're used to using. So you really have to like focus and get in touch with how you're accessing, controlling those. like, they're so innately connected to your emotions and just like, as a, like, as a response that like the slightest stimuli can like seize everything up and then like, it's so much to then get back to a point of like relaxation to like, it's. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:17:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
You can't fake the relaxation,
right? You really can't. Yeah, I remember. ⁓
Jake Apton (1:18:08)
No, it has to be. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:18:12)
The first time I did a fisting scene at a party that wasn't my husband, because he was the only one that had fisted me at first. And this woman was like, oh, are you here by yourself? And I was like, yeah. And she's like, oh, would you like to play? And I was like, yeah, what do you got in mind? And she goes, do you like fisting? And I was like, yeah. I didn't know how to negotiate it, because I'd only ever done it with my husband. Well, he wasn't my husband at the time. But what I know about myself now that I didn't know about myself then, and how did I learn this, is that
Jake Apton (1:18:31)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:18:41)
After I orgasm, I tighten right up and she did not get out of me fast enough. And she's like, I'm gonna need you to take some deep breaths. Right. And I was like, oh, so like I call my then boyfriend and I was like, all right, maybe I texted him. said, I just got fisted. Clearly what you know that I don't know is that after I come, you need to get out of me like right away. And he's like, oh yeah, you definitely got to get out of there right away. Like that was
Jake Apton (1:18:44)
⁓ never.
Yeah. ⁓
Michelle Renee (1:19:10)
I didn't know I needed to know that, but now I know that anytime I go into negotiations, it's like, get out of me fast because I don't want to, I've given birth to two children. I'm not interested in birthing anybody's fist out of me. Good times.
Jake Apton (1:19:27)
All right, so yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:19:28)
Alright.
This is...
Some of my cards have gotten mixed up over the years. Okay, this is level three. Well, that doesn't work. That's like a group card. Well, was like, here's the question. It was which players are most likely to have fucked each other on the down low? That's not gonna work for us. ⁓ Well, I don't know. Have we both hooked up with Alex? Have you done any scenes with Alex yet?
Jake Apton (1:19:46)
yeah, that's, that's, it doesn't really apply to us. Nope.
I definitely feel like we definitely did a group scene. So we did a couple of group scenes at the house. I don't remember if we actually penetrated each other. He definitely blew me.
Michelle Renee (1:20:07)
Well, he's only blown me. He hasn't penetrated me either. we're Eskimo sisters in that way of some kind of way, I'm sure.
Jake Apton (1:20:09)
Yeah. ⁓
And
I, there's a high likelihood that he's going to listen to this. And so Alex, I'm so sorry if we did actually have a scene, if we did share more of a scene and I, I'm so sorry, I don't remember that. I don't remember a of things.
Michelle Renee (1:20:23)
He's chill. He's chill. That's okay.
Jake Apton (1:20:28)
though there's been times especially you know doing only fans and just you know with hookup culture that like I've met people it's like oh, yeah How are you nice to meet you? It's like we've had sex before I was like halfway. Oh, I guess we did
Michelle Renee (1:20:32)
Mm-hmm.
I can't,
there was a point, ⁓ so I married my high school sweetheart, was with him for 21 years. ⁓ coming out of that, I remember listening to a podcast one day where these two women were talking about how they would return back to the same lover to not raise their number.
And I was like, I never want to ever make a decision like that. refuse. At that point, I said, I'm never going to count. And I certainly.
Jake Apton (1:21:01)
Yeah.
See, meanwhile, I'm
more of a numbers game. Like, let's pump those numbers up.
Michelle Renee (1:21:08)
I don't see a problem with it. This whole thing about like body count bullshit, whatever. But yeah, I can't remember names. I'm not interested in remembering every person that I've ever been with.
Jake Apton (1:21:10)
Yeah.
Oh, it's always fun. Like whenever I have to go like planned parenthood you know, get an STD test and they're always like, Oh, like how many partners have you had in the last, you know, in the last month? I'm like, one, stopped counting after 10 and that was about three days into the month. like.
Michelle Renee (1:21:33)
You know what my job is?
Jake Apton (1:21:34)
Right? How many burners have I written last year? boy, the limit does not exist.
Michelle Renee (1:21:37)
I'm having a really...
I've had
a really interesting time learning from Alex kind of all that's happening in like, I'm calling it med tech, like as far as like the safer sex world of like medications, because I grew up in a time when, you know, we had Monday night movies on like the AIDS epidemic. You know what I mean? Like I grew up in a very different time and it's been really interesting now to like, ⁓
Jake Apton (1:21:50)
OK.
yeah.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:22:06)
I've decided I'm on prep. I've got prescription for PEP, doxy PEP. So I'm on the three month regimen of testing now and my husband's doing the same thing. And it's just really interesting to now renegotiate with myself, what are my safer sex practices? How can I feel like I can modify them a bit?
Jake Apton (1:22:18)
No.
Michelle Renee (1:22:31)
how much of weird leftover purity culture comes into my thinking about like in the, you know, the who are you fluid bonded with, you know, talk, I don't know if that's ever been a thing in your world, but like for like in the poly world, it was always like this, how many like, you like, I've always only been fluid bonded with one person at a time. And now that's not the case. And it's just interesting to wrap my head around this current options.
Jake Apton (1:22:40)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:23:00)
It's really, and I've learned so much of that through Alex, because we get a lot of car time together. And I'm like, yo, young buck, teach me your ways, because y'all have very different, you know, him and even, you know, meeting Chad, like, ⁓ I know it's different when you're in the professional sex world, it has to be different, but it's still like, I'm just wrapping my head around the use of medications.
⁓ I feel like it, I don't know if I just people in my circles aren't talking about it enough yet, but I always give myself that mandate to like talk about shit that nobody's talking about. So it normalizes it. So this is my announcement everyone. I'm on, I'm on prep. Yay.
Jake Apton (1:23:39)
Yeah.
I feel like Doxy, especially Doxy and Prep are so like, it's so gay, centrally gay focused. Like, so I have straight friends that I know hook up, at least, know, the same amount, if not more than me. And they're not on Doxy. Like, oh, you're on Prep, like, what's that? I'm like, how do you not even know what this is? Like, yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:23:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Right. Yeah. And that's been,
that's been so interesting. part of what kicked a lot of this off was I asked, ⁓ Alex, I was trying to find, we were in a time crunch for some STI testing cause part, my husband was off to travel and was going to hook up with some people and hadn't planned well. Thank you, ADHD. You know I mean? Like, and I'm like, so Alex, who do you recommend for testing? And he gave us some different options and we both jumped into Qcare.
which is meant for gay men. And it's interesting coming in there, I picked a female provider and in a lot of what she would usually say had to be tweaked a bit for me, but you could tell that they're so used to working with gay men and some of the risk factors haven't been tested out so much on female bodies. And yeah, but it's interesting to figure out why do I have hesitations? Where does that come from? What programming is playing a part of that?
Jake Apton (1:24:51)
Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:25:03)
So the last of our things here, because we've been on for a long time. I should let you go. I know. Here's my dream is that somebody puts me on a really long form, like a three hour podcast, where I can just go. What was the most inconvenient time you've been turned on?
Jake Apton (1:25:08)
i told you i can just- yeah, bye
Michelle Renee (1:25:21)
I don't even know what I'm going to answer for this, but I'm curious of what yours is.
Jake Apton (1:25:25)
a time I've been turned on?
I don't know, because I have such a strange relationship with my libido. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:25:30)
Ooh, let's talk about that if you're open to talking about
that because I think that's way more interesting.
Jake Apton (1:25:36)
So I am trying to like reacquaint myself with, not with my sexuality, I guess with my libido, with my relationship with sex. ⁓ And doing sex work, I've realized there's different types of sex. Like I, fairly early on, I realized there's hookup sex, like the hot, steamy, dirty sex, ⁓ the feral sex. And then there's also the passionate romantic sex.
Michelle Renee (1:25:45)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jake Apton (1:26:03)
And those both have their time and place. And once I started doing OnlyFans, I realized like that, like, okay, there's also OnlyFans sex where it's like, you know, like the, you know, it's like, it's like that feral sex, but you're still catering to like to a third person there. Like you're still to be conscious of the camera. You're still, you know, trying to make sure that it looks good and that like the emotions of that experience can come through. Cause you know, it kind of drives like the amateur form of it. And once I started doing porn, I realized that there's like this fourth layer of sex. Like that's
Michelle Renee (1:26:16)
Mm-hmm.
Jake Apton (1:26:31)
it's just studio sex and porn sex is just boring. it's not the like, again, I've met and have worked with has been super fantastic would work with just about everybody again. But it's so for the camera. They're like, hey, put your dick in and now okay, now hold it right there. We're gonna take you on take your thing on 1000 pictures. Okay, now pull out like two inches. Okay, so you have to like stay hard like that. And I, like, I don't know, I'm
Michelle Renee (1:26:32)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Jake Apton (1:26:58)
Also with ADHD, I get so bored during sex. to the point, there was about 2024-ish, I was starting to just like not enjoy sex. Like, mostly the coming out after sex, like that emotional crash afterwards. That like, you know, the post-mort clarity aspect of it and like the like having to clean everything up, I just wasn't enjoying it. That, like, that at the end wasn't worth the height of everything.
Michelle Renee (1:27:10)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Jake Apton (1:27:22)
And then also like the social currency of having to then like, you know, work with somebody, talk to somebody and like have that discussion of like, what are we doing? And then like relying on their performance and their right So I was just like, primarily, you know, self-pleasuring, just masturbation or whatever. And then like, yeah, and just wasn't enjoying sex until one of my friends told me like, you don't have to come every time. And I'm like, that changed something with me. I'm like, oh shit, I can just hook up and don't need to come.
Michelle Renee (1:27:22)
Yeah.
Hmm?
Jake Apton (1:27:49)
So I started bottoming more, and I would hook up with a guy and be like, hey, just so know, like, I'm probably not going to come today. And he's like, oh, I'm going to make you come. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, not going to happen. Like, you, yeah. Um, so actually I've been, you know, cards on the table and I've been like working with my doctor. Cause like, I've now having like, I'm now struggling to, get and stay hard. Like I even, picked up some trimix and even like, there were some at the, at the content house I had.
Michelle Renee (1:27:57)
Yeah, ⁓ that resonate with that.
Mm-hmm.
Jake Apton (1:28:16)
You know, very high amount of try max in my system and just like, Couldn't stay hard enough. I then just switched to bottoming and listening just cause it was easier. Like.
Michelle Renee (1:28:24)
Yeah, for the people
at home, Trimix is the injectable erectile medication. I mentioned it a lot and even in my circles, people are like, what's that? And I'm like, right, because I hang out with gay porn stars. ⁓ I understand this a little bit more. And I've had clients. mean, to be fair, like in my work when I was doing surrogate partner work, I worked with people and I learned about that through that. learned about penis implants and all sorts of that world.
Jake Apton (1:28:35)
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, there's trimix
and there's also bimix So trimix is a mix of three drugs bimix is a mix of two drugs. and I usually don't do well with needles, like even like when I get blood drawn for, ⁓ like for the STD tests, and they only take a small vial like high risk of me just passing out. So I have, you know, like resorting to trimix and having to like, self administer a needle to my dick has been a challenge. And thankfully, I've been able to take
Michelle Renee (1:28:54)
⁓
Mm-hmm.
Aww.
Jake Apton (1:29:16)
Yep, I think it's a very fine needle. ⁓
Michelle Renee (1:29:17)
How
soon does that work? I'm curious, usually. Okay. I mean, could you make it part of like foreplay and have a partner do it?
Jake Apton (1:29:20)
It's usually immediate like the like ⁓
⁓ you could. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:29:27)
Can we make it sexy, like putting condoms
on a sexy way? Like, I don't know what that looks like, but I'm just thinking like, how do you make it sexy?
Jake Apton (1:29:32)
off.
But also, usually you get a drop or two of blood just from the needle and everything. So that, again, that's just another high risk aspect of that foreplay. So I usually don't, because also I have to kind of hype myself up for the needle. then after it's in, pretty much have to, the one person explained it to me, you have to jerk off and just lock it in. And you jerk off until you get hurt, and then that's when you lock it in. And then you pretty much just stay hard for a couple hours.
Michelle Renee (1:29:39)
huh.
huh. Yeah.
Interesting.
Jake Apton (1:29:59)
⁓ and the other thing with, and I noticed this with stripping too, cause I used to take a lot of Viagra for stripping. ⁓ if you're like, if you're relying on like your calf and thigh muscle or your thigh and quad muscles, like as soon as you flex those muscles, you're diverting all of the blood from that area to the muscles and that's immediately leaving your dick So yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:30:17)
Yeah, that's what I think. I
think Alex was just telling me a story. Maybe it was from that house that y'all were in about getting an erection like a tip for getting your erection to go down was to do like squats or something like that he said. I'm like, I've I don't have a penis. So I've never had to deal with that. But that's interesting. It's interesting. Yeah.
Jake Apton (1:30:30)
yeah, like there's a flex here, flex your quads, flex your thighs.
But
I guess to answer the question with the time I've been most inconveniently turned on, just like probably either on an airplane, planes, trains, automobiles, the vibration of that vehicle moving is always like that's usually just a good like, ⁓ we're awake now. It's like, but I can't do anything with it here.
Michelle Renee (1:30:55)
huh.
Yeah, can't even. I'm such do you know, do you know much about like, I don't know how much you know about like, sex education. I'm thinking it's not even necessarily just a female situation. But do know much about the dual response for sexual desire, dual response model? So like, spontaneous arousal or spontaneous desire versus responsive desire.
Jake Apton (1:31:21)
Sounds familiar, say more.
Michelle Renee (1:31:28)
So I'm highly responsive. I'm not horny Michelle walking around like ever. I miss those days because it would be really easy and nice. So I can't even like tell you the last time. I have to be really on purpose to get turned on. the things I have to do that I know are like in my menu of things that turn me on so that I can get aroused so that desire shows up. I don't know of a time that I've been turned on in an inconvenient space.
Jake Apton (1:31:42)
Yeah.
And also like the, like I have like clinical anxiety and then with ADHD, it's like, my brain is always kind of like humming at like that anxious level. And with ADHD, can't, like I'm bouncing around on everything else. So it's like, that's the one, you know, the one section of my brain that's always just kind of turned off of like, yeah, like we're, you know, we're, this level of anxious. We're not going to focus on that right now. That's, you know, a different part of the brain and we're not focused on that. So it's that level of it. usually I've kind of.
Michelle Renee (1:32:04)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jake Apton (1:32:21)
whether it's Pavlov or just an actual response, but usually if I take a hit of poppers at the beginning of a scene, that's enough to quiet my brain enough for that part of my brain to come forward and just kind of lock in. Yeah. ⁓
Michelle Renee (1:32:32)
Oh, interesting. So that's another thing. We don't talk about poppers in my world, right? I remember
I, um, Alex did his, his podcast, kink curious. And I went to his, um, uh, launch party up in West Hollywood. And part of that was they did a little demo and part of it include poppers. And I was like, Whoa, I've never been in the room with us before. Like I just, it so not in my lexicon and,
Jake Apton (1:32:53)
yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:32:59)
It's just interesting. He's like, we could try it. could try it sometime. Maybe. I'm a person that tries everything once usually. And it's never been in my repertoire. So maybe I'll try it one day.
Jake Apton (1:33:09)
Yeah,
that's I remember like the first time I tried poppers. I was bottoming for a guy and you know, he was trying to loosen me up and I was like, it was a new, new partner and I'm like new. That was a bit intimidated because he was a big porn star and he was kind of like retired out of it, but he was still doing only fans type stuff. So I was like the, he was a cool guy. He was very attractive and also like had a big name attached. So like, was like all sorts of anxious and he gave me a hit and I just like, remember just, I'm really going feral. I'm like, Oh, okay. Yeah, let's go. Like let's fucking go. Um,
Michelle Renee (1:33:17)
Mm-hmm.
that's fun.
Jake Apton (1:33:36)
And that very much changed the game for me. now like I, I can have sex and I have had sex without poppers, but if I have the option to use poppers, then I'm going to, especially from bottoming that scene. It just of locks me into that head space.
Michelle Renee (1:33:48)
Yeah, yeah. mean, I,
you know, I have anal sex, I don't know, a couple times a year. If I had to know that I needed to be relaxed in, you know, even like the y'all's clean out practices, like I've never worried about it. I tell Alex all the time, I'm like, I've never worried about it. I'm just like, I know my body.
Jake Apton (1:33:56)
Mm-hmm.
⁓ mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:34:12)
It's it's never it's only been an issue once and I knew it was going to be an issue and I warned my boyfriend but he was so single focused that I said this is not going to go well and if it doesn't go well we're never talking about this ever ever ever and he's like okay like Inconveniently horny. and ⁓ yeah, like there's just so much in my world that is just different different
Jake Apton (1:34:25)
Yeah.
You
Yeah. And it's like, again, like with like, it's so, I feel like it's so like ingrained in gay culture now that like, don't know what it is, but like, I'll mention to my straight friends, like, oh, I need to go get some poppers or like, oh, you know, like that pocket has the, that part of my bag has my, it has my rush in it. And like, what's that? I'm like, how do you not know? Like, let me change text for you.
Michelle Renee (1:34:43)
Mm-hmm.
It's a different, it is, it
is a different, it is such a different culture. It's a different language. It's just like when I got in the BDSM world, that was a whole different language to learn. ⁓ This is why we need to have friends of multiple generations and multiple orientations of multiple genders of multiple, like as much variety as we can have so that we all just have a better sense of the rest of the world that we're missing out.
Jake Apton (1:35:01)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And just being able to like openly discuss it with with people like actually going back to ColossalCon last year, I got there like I rolled into the hotel like 2am like the night before everything started and we were just I was sitting in like the one suite with with my friends because we all just driven so like we're all like what kind of wired and like 2am like let's just all catch up because it's the first time seeing each other in a while. And I took a picture there was a bottle of Jameson, a thing of superglue and thing of hoppers like right next to each other like
Michelle Renee (1:35:26)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jake Apton (1:35:52)
Just the way that things end up on the counter. I'm like, this is such a funny picture. just like.
Michelle Renee (1:35:54)
Uh-huh.
Jake Apton (1:35:56)
But then of course, all my friends were like, hey, what's that? I'm like, these are poppers. And one of my straight friends Ross, he's like, I'll try it. like, okay, like weird, weird atmosphere to just try it, not even a sexual nature. And he took it and it was funny. Just like watch his eyes just kind of glaze over and him get really flushed and then come back down there. He's like, that was interesting. like, yeah, no, no, that during sex. I'd say at max, maybe two minutes.
Michelle Renee (1:36:07)
Yeah.
How long does it last?
Okay.
Jake Apton (1:36:21)
It's usually a really, it's a rush. It's a head rush. And you know, it takes probably about 10 to 15 seconds to really get, you know, you know, go up the hill. And then it's a bit of a roller coaster ride, but it's, say two minutes you're done back down to earth and ready for the next set. it's
Michelle Renee (1:36:24)
Yeah. Yeah.
So shorter than DMT, sorry. My drug explorations did not start until I was 37, I think is the first time I smoked weed. Like that was, oh, oh baby Michelle, she was such a good girl. And I have not done DMT, because I'm afraid of what that fast 10 minutes includes. But I'm certainly a fan of mushrooms and molly and yeah.
Jake Apton (1:36:41)
yeah.
Yeah,
I haven't explored too much into the world of drugs. I mostly just stick with And especially weed and poppers, like, poppers are a vasodilator. Vasodilator? Yeah, vasodilator. because like, yeah. Which makes it really difficult to have, actually it's really dangerous to have with Viagra, because you can give yourself a heart attack if your blood pressure just drops so low.
Michelle Renee (1:37:12)
Mm-hmm.
I think that's, yeah.
sure.
Yeah.
Jake Apton (1:37:25)
So don't mix those two things. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:37:27)
Good to know, kids at home.
Jake Apton (1:37:29)
⁓ I've partnered it with weed, which is also dangerous. It's also risky there, but I've found when I'm doing that, the effects seem to last longer. It could just be my brain just not processing time in the same way, but that also just leads to a much deeper experience, especially with the right partner, and that just kind of hits.
Michelle Renee (1:37:41)
Mmm.
Hmm, interesting. Again, don't try this at home people, unless you're experienced, whatever, but love talking about it. Yeah, I have, I have some people in my, I'm a professional. have, I've actually, I've had a few clients want to do like Molly MDMA with me and it hasn't happened yet. ⁓
Jake Apton (1:38:03)
We're professionals.
Michelle Renee (1:38:14)
But who knows? I did a practice session with a friend where I was like, what would it be like if I held you while you did it? And I felt like I was on it with him. Like it was super, what I love about MDMA or Molly or ecstasy or whatever you want to call it, is like, it's such a connector. Like it's so like oxytocin producing and it's, I just felt like super bonded to him afterwards.
And that makes me a little afraid to do it with clients. Like we already have complicated relationships and then to have that kind of bonding agent, kind of the super glue on the table, ⁓ super gluing us together, it's something to be kind of like, be wary of. I say the same thing. you, have you played in the kink world at all? BDSM? I always say like the thing people don't know is that they should be much more careful about.
Jake Apton (1:38:43)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:39:08)
who they play with because they can get very bonded to that person. And especially if it's a long-term relationship situation, you'll never not have some kind of claws in each other. So hard to separate those.
Jake Apton (1:39:21)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:39:23)
So play with care.
Jake Apton (1:39:24)
Yeah.
I've only dabbled with drugs here or there and it's always been like, I've been at a party and somebody has had it. It's like, you should try this. like, but at that point they're like, I, I stick to alcohol and weed though. Those are my two main vices just, and I, I know those and I'm, I know how I handle those. ⁓ so I'm very hesitant to always make something new in, unless it's very specific environment. ⁓ yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:39:36)
Yeah.
Yeah, especially if you take any other medications too on top of it
definitely. Don't, don't.
Jake Apton (1:39:50)
And yeah, once you
start mixing anything with weed and alcohol, which is already a risky combination anyways, because they're both downers, it just gets dangerous.
Michelle Renee (1:39:58)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Jake Apton (1:40:01)
be actually my birthday last year. I was at the Eagle in Fort Lauderdale and I was there with friends like I my friends live there so I was staying with them and it was my birthday so I kind of gave myself permission to be extra messy and I'm like I it's even if anything goes wrong there's enough people here that know me and know that I'm allowed to get messy and like will it take care of me if things go wrong and they offered me a press pill which really I don't know what is in it
I want to say it has ecstasy and molly in it, also like microdosing, also like, don't know. ⁓ Yeah, don't know. And I was like, and, again, I, and I usually, I, if I don't know, I'm not going to do it, but it was my friend who I, who I do trust with my life offering me. And again, I knew even though was a new place, it was a place where like, I, I had permission to be messy and I knew there were going to be people that would take care of me if things got bad. ⁓ but.
Michelle Renee (1:40:31)
Probably. You don't know. That's the problem. You don't know.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jake Apton (1:40:56)
Yeah, but even though like I, maybe it's just because I have a big build and it wasn't a high enough dose by looking back, I can't even like say like where the effects of that started and ended versus like the weed now call it that was already in my system. So, but
Michelle Renee (1:41:06)
Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah, I think I
think having a bigger body is helpful in that you get to titrate the experience a little bit more than if you'd walked in and been in a petite little tiny frame.
Jake Apton (1:41:13)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, there's, there's stuff that I would definitely want to try in a closed environment, but I just haven't, I just don't have access to it. And that's, I'm okay with that. I'm not actively seeking that out.
Michelle Renee (1:41:29)
Yeah, yeah.
I don't, I'm like the person, I like doing those things, but I like doing them either solo or with like one other person. I'm not a party version of it. Like, I mean, the first time I did ⁓ Molly ⁓ was at a party, but I was really by myself. Like it was a very solo experience. And I think I go so internal that I'm not very fun. Like I'm doing all this work in my head.
Jake Apton (1:41:39)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:41:53)
meeting my inner child or whatever the hell like I did. I did a mushroom trip one time where I, my inner child was like a Fabergé egg that I could hold. I, and then my mushroom trip, was deciding who, who gets to hold my egg for me and who doesn't and how I should protect my egg. It's mine to protect and I can't just give it off to others. It was very therapeutic. And now ever since then I've been on the hunt.
Jake Apton (1:41:54)
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's all internal and
everybody's edges are watching you like dissociate
Michelle Renee (1:42:17)
No, I like I literally now I spent a couple of years and I'm still looking for the egg like I it's it's Easter time in every Easter. I'm like, Michelle, you should go to like one of these pottery places and just like design your own egg because they would have them in their little things that you can you can paint. And then I was like, what would I do? you know, I'd probably color it with all the things I liked when I was a kid. And ⁓ so I love the use of drugs for my own personal
Jake Apton (1:42:31)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:42:46)
learning about myself and journeys. But I'm not a party drug person. So yeah, it's all good. Well, Jake, we made it through three levels of that. I don't know if it was super. I don't know if it was as spicy as people think these things are.
Jake Apton (1:43:04)
I feel like we got all this legit. I feel like there's so much more we could just yap about.
Michelle Renee (1:43:08)
What would
you want to talk about if you had your way?
Jake Apton (1:43:12)
Um, so last year, me and one of my friends, we started, we attempted a podcast and it fizzled out, which it did. And like we got to a point where we're kind of having creative differences and we could understand. Yeah. Um, also just schedules stopped lining up just, um, but we were focused on, uh, pretty people problems. what I hope for. Yeah. It's a, what I call a pretty people problems. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:43:19)
They're hard.
Mm-hmm.
Say it again.
pretty people. I thought you said pre-people.
I'm like, how far back we going?
Jake Apton (1:43:38)
no.
So pretty people problems and also pretty people privilege. And just like how like how people perceive you in terms of beauty standards, how that affects like what you're able to do and get away with and just like your experience of of life. And that's stripping and doing sex work. It's it's all pretty privilege. It's all pretty privilege. ⁓ Now I like
Michelle Renee (1:43:43)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jake Apton (1:44:05)
I'm not vain enough to think that I'm as attractive as people tell me I am. like, well, thank you. I disagree. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:44:08)
You're very attractive, Jake.
No, I think you're more attractive when you talk about like the way that you
talk about your tattoos and stuff. To me that like, I could say you're aesthetically pleasing, but attractive is like the package comes together and I like, I think you have an adorable personality.
Jake Apton (1:44:28)
But I could go into just everything about beauty standards and how our individual perceptions of that just go into it. Even when I'm at the clubs, I should say often get the sense that people think of me less as a person and more as an object. And that is the time and place to be an object. I'm okay objectifying myself because I can like...
Michelle Renee (1:44:47)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Jake Apton (1:44:56)
At that point, I'm doing that for profit. But yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:44:58)
You better pay me when you're objectifying me.
That would be my preference.
Jake Apton (1:45:02)
But then when I put my jacket on and leave the club, as soon as I step outside, I'm still getting objectified and I'm not consenting to it. That's not a place where I can do that. I'd want to be able to turn that off and just kind of go inwards and just like, but you can't turn that off. on more than one occasion, I've been at the club one night and been all sorts of like touch, grope, terass, whatever, and that's what my job is, so that's okay. But then the next morning I wake up and I'm like,
Michelle Renee (1:45:08)
Mm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Jake Apton (1:45:30)
throwing, you know, throwing on sweats and a hoodie to go to Walmart to get a gallon of milk because I forgot that I was out. And, you know, I've had people come up to me that morning in Walmart and just start hitting on me like, Oh my God, you're so hot. Or like, you know, they're staring at me and like, look at you. I'm like, don't like my hood is up like sunglasses on like I don't want to be looked at right now. And there's not a way to like, to turn that off. And I
Michelle Renee (1:45:46)
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I
think you could go into lesbian spaces. Like I go into gay spaces. It's
Jake Apton (1:45:54)
Because...
my, my lesbian, I have a couple like lesbian friends. They, they're some of my biggest supporters. ⁓
Michelle Renee (1:46:03)
I always ask
Alex, like, can I, are you okay if, well, I don't always anymore. When I first became friends with Alex, I was like, is it okay if I objectify you? And he's like, yes, totally. And I was like, okay, great. Cause I wouldn't want to do that without like having someone's full, like not even just consent, but like, I really don't want this to be a, you're tolerating me doing this space.
Jake Apton (1:46:19)
Yeah.
Yeah, but
like I get messages saying whether it's through TikTok because I have a decent following there, TikTok or Instagram or even like this week in that PAX when I'm in cosplay. ⁓ I've had guys, young guys come up to me and those, my God, you're so hot. And like they, they're just adding absolute lost for words. I'm like, okay. And like that's, it's gotten to the point that's almost like a turn off for me. Like if all you can say is that I'm hot and that you're obsessed with me, then like that gives me nothing to work with. Like.
Michelle Renee (1:46:47)
Yeah.
No,
there's no conversation at that point.
Jake Apton (1:46:54)
Right, like we don't even
have that in common. I don't think I'm that attractive. like would complete miss on this. Yeah, it's yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:47:01)
Well, and also they just don't know you.
yeah, it's, it goes back to like, I think I'm gonna blow this out a little bit. Well, I also think it's just a problem in general of people falling for or becoming obsessed with or what have you with the idea of somebody. And so you, you've
Jake Apton (1:47:10)
That's a pretty problem.
Mm-hmm.
Also that. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:47:27)
you've created, they created a story about you based on your attractiveness or what have you. And it's like, you don't actually know anything about me. I could be an absolute vile human being. Does it still not matter? Like, I don't know. It's the opposite side of also having sex with people that you're not attracted to. There's like, I'm also confused by that in some ways of like...
Jake Apton (1:47:36)
Yeah.
Yeah, and there's been, yes.
Michelle Renee (1:47:52)
That's a it's a long story goes back into my work with a client where he was like, can we just like I just want to have sex so we can see if my dick works and I'm like, are you even attracted to me? No, and I'm like, okay Now the thing you don't know about me I don't think because you'd have to go back a long ways to find it out if you did any kind of like Diving into any of my stuff. It's so far back. I started a thing of many years ago called soft cock week
Jake Apton (1:47:53)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Michelle Renee (1:48:18)
where I wanted to encourage the appreciation and celebration of the flaccid phallus because I got so tired of men being like, what's wrong with my dick? It doesn't stay hard all the way through sex. And I was like, you all need some better sex education. Also, soft penises are super fun to play with. Like if we could get outside of the penetrative sex is the only kind of real sex, you can have a really lovely, wonderful sex life and not have erections ever or all the time or whatever.
And so all these weird things I've heard about penises, ⁓ they created this week of celebration that I used to do in November every year. Now it still lives. The website now is like itdoesnthavetobehard.org. And I have a co-parent. don't take care of it anymore. I have a colleague that's taken it over for me.
Jake Apton (1:49:06)
Okay.
Michelle Renee (1:49:13)
but it still lives in the world to tell everyone that it's okay to have a soft cock. It's okay.
Jake Apton (1:49:17)
Yeah. But there's,
there's been a couple of guys that I've been talking to, like attractive guys too, that I'm like into and every message you get from them is like, Oh, you're so hot. You're so hot. I'm like, look at you're actively ruining this, like you're ruining your shot with me. Like I'm into you. I'm still talking to you. I'm still responding to you, but all you're giving me is like, you think I'm hot. Like that's your, you're shooting yourself on the foot there. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:49:30)
Mm-hmm.
If you were super like
ego driven and was like, need a regular dose of remind me that I am attractive because I can't, I clearly can't know that for myself. I don't know. Like I, that constant reassurance, I suppose, but like, it's like, if you got a, if you get a message from someone that are just like, Hey, you're like, what am I supposed to work with this same kind of thing?
Jake Apton (1:49:43)
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah, and yeah,
I called the guy, the one guy out on that. He's like, Well, what am I supposed to talk to you about? Like, literally anything else? Like, how was your day? Like, I'm, I'm still talking to you. I'm still interested, like
Michelle Renee (1:50:10)
Yeah. You were like, let's break out these were not really strangers cards. I, I, I did use one on ⁓ a, I had a date the other night and we brought the Honest Dating expansion pack with us. And they were, were, mean, I don't know if I do it on a first date. It felt a little like, again, like these cards are a little hard to answer when you don't know someone very well.
Jake Apton (1:50:11)
You know, of course correct here. let's talk about anything impressive. Right.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:50:37)
But one of them was like, what, it was something like.
How am I in person compared to my online profile or what have you? I that would be an interesting, like, I need to know more about you than, have you even read my profile? But B, what is interesting about you? I need to have my brain turned on as much as I need to just like you aesthetically.
Jake Apton (1:50:45)
Okay, yeah, yeah
Yeah.
With yeah
With dating profiles. ⁓ I hate when people use my name in the first message or when people use my name and It's I know it it was wrong when my tech box. Yeah, Yeah, if they're if their first message is like, hey, what's up Jake? I'm like, nope not gonna work out like and I don't know like it feels weird to say that like don't use my name but also like
Michelle Renee (1:51:06)
I heard somebody else say that recently. Who was it? No, was it one of your videos? It was probably one of your videos. Yeah, yeah. I was like, how did I just hear this? It was you.
Well, for my s-
Yeah, but from
my side of it, like I think about FetLife, for example, how many times do I get a message that is so not specialized to me? If they even thought to put my name in it, I would be impressed. Like that's the level of like it, yes, it does feel like it's a mail merge situation and they just dropped your name in even though there's nothing else that connects to your profile. But I'm like, what I heard you say that I was like, oh.
Jake Apton (1:51:37)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:51:53)
interesting because like I would be thrilled to see anything that meant that they paid attention to something.
Jake Apton (1:51:58)
It's
I mean, it might just be like the tone in which I read it because I always like read like whenever people use my name, especially like that I always read it as kind of aggressive. Like, Hey, what's up, Jake? I'm like, don't do that. Yeah. Let's say like, if I'm messaging my like my friends or even like my my ex husband, like, I don't use their names. Like they know who I'm messaging. That's Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:52:05)
Mmm.
Okay, so if you're in a relationship, ⁓ I've noticed...
No, but this is an experiment. You can try
this with your friends or lovers or whoever and people listening at Hope can try this too. I found this with my husband and with other people that saying like, Paul, I love you, feels different than me just saying, I love you. yeah. So like, I think it's an interesting maybe in under the right circumstances, it has a lot more. ⁓
Jake Apton (1:52:36)
⁓ yeah.
Intimacy. Yeah. So it could, it could also be that I could just be like, they're like, they're by using my name, like it's, they're implying a level of intimacy that I'm not necessarily consenting to on the first message.
Michelle Renee (1:52:45)
Yeah. Yeah.
too intimate.
Yeah, it's
just like using pet names. Like, my goodness, no. Somebody messaged my ⁓ business partner and said something like, ⁓ hello pretty, something, know, whatever. And she comes back and she goes, I'm sorry, I think you might have the wrong person. Because I told her, I'm like, my maiden name is Purdy. And so I go, why don't you just say like,
I'm sorry, like I think you might have got the wrong person. My business partner, her last name used to be Purdy. Nobody likes pet names. Not when you don't have an actual relationship with the person.
Jake Apton (1:53:26)
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's also been a, I put that tik tok up and it's been curious to see like people defending the use of first names and messages and the people that also agree with me of like, no, it's weird to like to, you know, establish that level of intimacy on the first message. that's now like, I can completely understand people wanting to use the first name. People are like, I want you to know that I like that I at least read your name and I know how to spell your name and everything. That's, that's cool. That's great.
Michelle Renee (1:53:34)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Jake Apton (1:53:58)
But also like you're not going to get a response if you just say, what's up, Jake? Like that's like, Hey, what's up? I might respond to that. I excuse you for my name in there. Like your chances drop.
Michelle Renee (1:54:07)
Interesting. I think it's important for people to know that though because if they are a name user and they want to hit your inbox, be more vague.
Jake Apton (1:54:07)
Let's see ya.
All right.
And it could also just be like,
I'm like, especially in this world, like I use like Jake is not like my, my legal name and my, at least my Tinder profile has my legal name on it. So like them using my legal name, like that's a level like that, that's a part of me that I don't necessarily like publicized. I don't like that being out in public. I don't like, so again, like they're crossing that line without, without even knowing they're doing it.
Michelle Renee (1:54:31)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, do you run into people that are able to link put you together like performer and in personal like I feel like I feel like Alex had something like this happen recently, but I might not be thinking the right person.
Jake Apton (1:54:49)
⁓ I haven't had too
many people on it's not on Tinder. ⁓ but I have had people playing both like, yeah. And I've had people messaged me on like on Grindr and other hookup apps. mean, like, my gosh, I follow you on TikTok or I follow you here and there. And then, ⁓ like, ⁓ like, PAX this weekend, ⁓ one of the drag queens that was performing in the drag show, she came up to and was like, are you Jay Kat? I'm like, I am. And she's like, my God, I follow you on Twitter. It's like, I, like in
Michelle Renee (1:54:56)
Yeah, I don't think he was on Tinder. I think he was on Scruff or something, but yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Jake Apton (1:55:17)
So I've had that happen even like when I was at the clubs, especially if I'm on stage, dick in the breeze, people are like, I follow you on TikTok. I'm like, okay.
Michelle Renee (1:55:25)
Yeah, that's...
Jake Apton (1:55:26)
Weird
opening right now when you can see all of me, but that's okay
Michelle Renee (1:55:29)
It's
such an interesting that the the how do I describe it? Like I started in all of this. The first thing I ever put out was a sex relationship blog that was kind of like a public diary of my exploration in kink and poly post divorce. And I remember going to there was this event every year. It just it just did its 10 year and and closed the doors and they're not doing it anymore.
called Sex Geek Summer Camp, which was a summer camp for sex educators to learn how to run their business, but also had fun parties in the evening, as you would expect. And I remember getting there, because I was like, I wanted to do sex ed, but I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. And I thought, I'll meet all these people and I'll figure out what that route looks like. And I had this person there that was like, ⁓ I've been reading your blog. And so they knew.
everything about me and I knew nothing about them and it was just such an imbalanced exposure. Yeah, so we had a cuddle party and I was like you and I are gonna cuddle and I'm gonna ask you a shit ton of questions about you just to kind of balance it out just a little bit because like yeah you do know a heck of a lot about me and I don't know anything about you.
Jake Apton (1:56:23)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, is it so, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, because
I say when I started tick tock, it very much just became like my personal diary and like my way for me to just like, catalog all of my stories of just weird shit that happens with strip club because you the weirdest characters there. And I say weird affectionately, ⁓ mostly affectionately. But yeah. But you people that, know, again, people that come up to me and like, my God, I watch all your tik toks and like they know all of my stories. I'm like.
Michelle Renee (1:56:54)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Not the average person.
Jake Apton (1:57:07)
Okay, like, you know me, ⁓ this like a certain level of intimacy here and like, know nothing about you. But also, like, you only know the part of me that I've curated specifically for to be publicized. Like I, I don't post a lot about like, it's even like my dog that's laying here. I don't post a lot about like my ex husband and our relationship, which was a whole thing that he was unhappy about. ⁓ like there's a lot of my personal life that I don't publicize because I just want to keep that to myself. Like I want that.
Michelle Renee (1:57:22)
Hmm.
Jake Apton (1:57:34)
to keep me grounded. I don't want to manufacture just me hanging out with my friends into something that's not.
Michelle Renee (1:57:36)
Yeah.
⁓ Yeah. Do you find that maybe you haven't tried it, but sharing more negative, I mean, if there's negative feelings, I don't believe that things like anger and sadness are negative. ⁓ I have a hard time myself saying anything that's not super uplifting and whatever, because I get this like flood of either unrequested
this is problem solving. Or this just like, I don't even know how to describe it. It leaves me, I just remember being left frustrated that I wish I hadn't said anything at all. I don't know you've had any experience with that where it's like, I have to think about what is the downhill effect of me sharing this thing because I don't feel like doing all this maybe emotional labor or something.
Jake Apton (1:58:31)
I
I haven't had that specific experience. know with, especially with the strip club, like I did promise myself, I was only willing to talk about the positive experiences of it. Cause I feel like there's such a stigma around sex work and stuff and everything. Right. The only time that I did actually very specifically share a negative experience was there was drama with another dancer where like he was, he was upset with the club and he was like openly badmouthing and trashing the club.
Michelle Renee (1:58:44)
Yeah, you don't want to add to it.
Jake Apton (1:58:58)
He he dragged my name into it like he very specifically mentioned me by name in one of the posts like, know Just Google review type things. So said, okay cool. It gloves are off now I'm going to like I'm gonna air out this this laundry. You mentioned me by name like congratulations. Welcome to the party Right But there's like, um, like in around the same last year I realized that I was like capital D depressed like
Michelle Renee (1:59:00)
Mmm.
Yeah, you were invited in. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Jake Apton (1:59:23)
I described
it as capital D depressing, like, as opposed to being like, I'm a millennial in the year 2025 and the world is shit. So yeah, I'm depressed. Um, and I, that's something that I didn't want to share on tiktok because like, it was mine to work through. And there was a lot of things going on that I just didn't want publicized. And it also like, I was still trying to figure out what that meant for me and how I could get through that. And like, I, I very much.
Michelle Renee (1:59:30)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jake Apton (1:59:50)
believe in the positivity of like, I want to put out positivity because I want to receive positivity. And like, I don't want to put out negativity because then I feel like I'm opening myself to receive negativity. And like, there's so much negativity out there. Like, I don't, I can't contribute to that.
Michelle Renee (1:59:55)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and it is
Yeah,
and at the same time, that's why people need to remember that when they're looking at our socials, it is curated. Mm hmm. Yeah. And that's an unrealistic. Yeah, it's an unrealistic expectation of what our lives are really like. Right. Like, I'm not I'm not going to go on there and I don't know, pour my heart out.
Jake Apton (2:00:08)
Mm-hmm. they're like, yeah, it's it's good. It's so curated. mean, I only know what I want to put out.
Yeah.
And there's, you know,
there's a certain ring of friends that like they were able to read between the lines and they knew what I wasn't posting. And they knew like when I did post something specific, they, they could read between those lines and they knew. ⁓ and you know, thankfully, you know, those friends have come up to me within the last couple of months and said, look at your, like, I can tell you're in such a better place now, even though like what you're posting quantitatively hasn't really changed. Like, you know, I can just look at you and know you're doing better. ⁓ and like to have like those people, I call them not people like.
Michelle Renee (2:00:32)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jake Apton (2:00:52)
They're people but they're not people like it's and what I mean by not people is like they're not if I say I don't want to be around people right now. They're not people right like these little people that are not people I can be around these guys like they're not energy to be around. I can sit on the couch and you know just sit on the couch with them and not say anything and that's great.
Michelle Renee (2:01:01)
There's the exceptions. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
What is your favorite friend date?
Jake Apton (2:01:14)
my favorite friend date. like we're just hanging out. Like we're doing something.
Michelle Renee (2:01:17)
If you could wave your magic
wand, what would you guys be doing?
Jake Apton (2:01:21)
Um, so probably I'm going to say going to get ramen, mostly because like the one of the friends that I see regularly in New York City, him and his girlfriend and I like usually, usually we're just going to go get ramen. And that's like, that's our, like, I usually see them before, because they don't live in like in New York City proper. So like when I'm in the city, I stay at his apartment and it's usually just our, go get ramen, we debrief. And that's just like, that's just us catching up on life. And that's like, I have such a
Michelle Renee (2:01:25)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Jake Apton (2:01:47)
positive relationship with ramen because of just this regular this regular friend date. Also, he's he's the one straight friend that I know has watched all of my professional porn that's been put out. And he gave me notes on it. I came home from the club the one night and he was you know, he was still up, you know, playing video games on his computer and he's like, so like I decided to watch like all of your porn. I'm like, I'm sorry, you what?
Michelle Renee (2:01:52)
Yeah.
Aww.
I love that.
Jake Apton (2:02:12)
He's like, yeah, like I thought your oral skills were actually really impressive. And like this, the video you did with this video, I thought was the best. like, that's the worst video, I think, but that's okay. Oh, I, I love him. Oh, and he's, he's Eastern European. So like to him, nudity and sex is just so ingrained. Like he's like, he immigrated here when he was, when he was a kid, but that's such a, like part of his culture now that like, he can completely remove sex from sexuality.
Michelle Renee (2:02:19)
Well, my hope is that he learned some things.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jake Apton (2:02:39)
And
yeah, so yeah, he was able to like watch all of my porn and cheer me on. And then have an open discussion about it. I'm like, okay.
Michelle Renee (2:02:47)
I love that. I had a client the other day that he goes, I watched the two shows that you suggested to me and two most recent shows that I've been like telling everybody they should watch. Of course, is Heated Rivalry is one of them. But the other one is a really, really cute show called Six is Not a Crowd. It's also on HBO. It's dubbed from like Spain or something, but it's about a polycule and it does a really good job of educating around non-monogamy and in
Jake Apton (2:03:06)
Okay.
Michelle Renee (2:03:16)
safer sex practices and things like that. And it's weird because it's dubbed, but it's just it's really adorable. And he comes back in and he's a straight man. And he says, OK, I watched the two shows that you suggested. And I was like, oh, you did. That's awesome. It's kind of like leaving little little gifts and people pick them up, you know. And he's like that six is not a crowd. I thought it was really good. I thought it might have had more sex than it needed. And I was like,
Jake Apton (2:03:17)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (2:03:43)
Well, that's fascinating, right? I was like, don't hear that come out of many people's mouths. And I go, well, know, sex sells and that's that's, you know, part of the intrigue of watching. And then he goes and I watched heated rivalry and I got to say I had to pause it at a point and I thought, why am I uncomfortable right now? And I said, have you ever watched gay porn? He goes, no. And I go, that might be why then like.
Jake Apton (2:03:50)
Yeah.
You
Michelle Renee (2:04:08)
But bless your heart that you finished it and that you came back and reported to me. And I think that's what I like is that ⁓ I think my clients figure out pretty quickly that they can tell me anything, anything. And I am going to be like super either really excited for them or like just cool as like I have no judgments because God knows I've done everything that I can think of. ⁓
Jake Apton (2:04:11)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (2:04:34)
you're not going to get any judgment from me. And so for him just to be really open about watching it and being uncomfortable and whatnot, thought it was really great.
Jake Apton (2:04:41)
If I could share a show back, ⁓ would say Fleabag. If you haven't watched that. ⁓ It's on Amazon Prime. ⁓ I started watching it because when it was nominated for a bunch of awards, it swept. And that award season, I was watching the show Marvelous Miss Maisel. And then Fleabag swept. was like, what is the show? How is this funnier than a show about a comedian? And I watched Fleabag. it's a quick watch. It's two seasons, like 12 episodes.
Michelle Renee (2:04:46)
I've heard of that. Where is that at? Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Okay.
Jake Apton (2:05:10)
You can
binge it over the course, know, over in a night if you wanted to. But it's about her relationship with sex, both positive and negative. it's, And it's about her relationship with her family and her sister. like, there's a lot of relationships, but there is a current theme of sex through it. Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (2:05:18)
I love this.
That makes me a yes, because yeah, everything I watch is about relationships
or sex.
Jake Apton (2:05:32)
Even the opening shot of it, she's standing, you can tell it's middle of the night, she's standing at her front door in her jacket and she's like, you know that experience when you accidentally made it out, you just got in and this really hot guy texts you at 2 a.m. so you have to get out of bed and jump in the shower and get ready for sex. So she's narrating her entire sexual experience to the audience about this as it's happening. it's the, just the sequence of events is so hysterical.
Michelle Renee (2:05:52)
Yeah, I love that.
I imagine relatable. I mean, for anybody that has ⁓ a varied sex life.
Jake Apton (2:06:00)
Yes. And there's a couple like really good,
yeah, there's a couple really good scenes in it where it's like, it's such a specific experience, but like, and even if it didn't apply to you, you even watch the scenes like I know exactly what she's feeling like. She's at a funeral and she's like, I'm too pretty for this funeral. Like my hair is just falling this really chic way and I don't know how to fix it. And like, you're right. And as she's walking down the reception, you know, at the receiving line.
Michelle Renee (2:06:18)
I'm not disheveled enough to be at a funeral.
Jake Apton (2:06:24)
People are like, we're so happy you came. We're so sorry for your loss. You look really good today. It's just so... Right, and the current theme, the underlying theme of the show is her relationship with sex and how, you know, she, in the first season, she has a bad relationship with sex and sex is actively destroying things in her life. And then by season two, she has a good relationship with sex and she's actually trying to control her sex drive and at least ran it in so she has full control over it.
Michelle Renee (2:06:28)
You're not supposed to show a vat of funeral looking good.
Jake Apton (2:06:51)
and like the positives and negatives that come from her relationship with sex. I'm a little surprised you haven't watched it because it's actually really good to know about sex.
Michelle Renee (2:06:55)
Mm-hmm.
I know, I just don't get on, I
don't get on Amazon Prime that often. It's not on my usual like list of where I go to seek out stuff. And so I'll have to, I'll go pull it up right when we get done with this and put it on the top of the thing.
Jake Apton (2:07:03)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
But that's, I
would highly recommend flea bag.
Michelle Renee (2:07:14)
Yeah, and I have
clients that love any, like I work with a lot of people. One of my clients right now really is like coming into understanding her own sexuality in her mid 60s, right? A lot of religious background. So a lot of these like rewriting of what the rules are kind of thing. last time, every time I'm with her, like we end up
like turning her on to a lot of different shows. And the last time she was here, we watched Kinsey, which I liked that movie with, I can't think of his name, but I liked that movie. ⁓ We turned her on to the series Masters of Sex. So she learned more about the history of Masters in Johnson, at least the first couple seasons, I think are really good for that. ⁓ She also has watched Heated Rivalry and
more than or Six is Not a Crowd. Gosh, what are some other ones? But I use them as like really great ways for her to like open her eyes up. And then she asked me a million questions. Like the best question was when we were watching Six is Not a Crowd and there was a throuple. So there was like, I think two men and a woman. And she's like, they're standing there kind of in an embrace where you've got man, woman, man.
Jake Apton (2:08:19)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (2:08:33)
And she goes, is there one in the front and one in the back? And I'm like, maybe. And then it turned into a whole conversation of what is double penetration and all this difference. Like my inner, I have this inner gremlin that loves like shocking people and like kind of, ⁓ I don't want to say bringing them to the dark side, but I like, I like.
I don't know saying things that they have to ask me. What is it? What is that? And I've done this with I've done this with this client for now. I think we're at almost three years of work together. And I'm always like, ⁓ do you know, like back in the early days, I remember. Pegging came up and she's like, what's that? And I told her and then I came home and told my husband about it. He's like, my God, wait till you tell her about anal ingus.
Jake Apton (2:09:03)
It was just their eyes.
Michelle Renee (2:09:27)
And so then I made sure that I was like, do you know anything about eating ass and like brain just, you know, I get such a kick out of it. It's such a little sadistic thing that I have. My sadist likes making people emotionally uncomfortable, like especially around their kinks or whatever their turn ons are. like specifically the armpit thing, my husband thinks it's dirty and he shouldn't like it.
Jake Apton (2:09:31)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (2:09:54)
and has this like interesting relationship with shame.
Jake Apton (2:09:57)
when it's dirty
and you don't like it and you shouldn't like it but you do like it that i feel like that just makes it so much
Michelle Renee (2:10:00)
Exactly. Yeah,
no, and I love it because then I'm like, I'm poking at is this like, are you like this? And you know, you shouldn't like it. no.
Jake Apton (2:10:06)
Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (2:10:11)
Well, Jake, that was a you might have my longest episode ⁓ marathon. I say this. think that my my podcast is like for people that are voyeurs who just want to like be in my life a little bit to meet some of my people. And I think you are not my people, but I feel like we know each other a lot better now. And I look I look forward to next time that we cross paths in our our porn world or whatever our worlds are.
Jake Apton (2:10:31)
yeah.
absolutely.
And when we were
setting this up, we both said that we're open books. Yeah, it's...
Michelle Renee (2:10:42)
Yeah, that's how we could talk so long. Yeah.
Well, I'm excited to feel like I know you better and that when we do see each other, it'll be a lovely hug. yeah, ⁓ I'll be a big fan. Where can the folks at home find you?
Jake Apton (2:10:52)
Absolutely.
I'm on most most social platforms ⁓ the Where can people find me and so Instagram TikTok and twitch I'm at jcap wolf J CAP WOLF and then on also Instagram reddit ⁓ Onlyfans Twitter all the spicey things all my Adult content is under my name Jake Apton. No spaces know anything else is just JakeApton so yeah Yeah
Michelle Renee (2:11:25)
I'll put it in the notes and it'll make
it easier for people to find you, but I
Jake Apton (2:11:29)
So I try to keep everything under
those two names and safe for work and not safe for work.
Michelle Renee (2:11:33)
I want to do more stuff with more people in the sex industry, just because I just find the conversations to be more my flavor of sorts. So thanks for being the first one that wasn't an actual just like close friend of mine. So yeah.
Jake Apton (2:11:42)
Yeah.
My pleasure, absolute pleasure.
you know Alex and Alex is good people, so it's...
Michelle Renee (2:11:57)
No,
I'm so glad I met him. He makes my life better. so yay to the spider webs of all of our connections. I hope you have a wonderful.
Jake Apton (2:12:00)
Yeah.
Yeah. I'm, I'm
Alex, I have one of the after parties for the AVNs and him myself and a guy Spencer who's six, seven. We were just sitting in the one bar talking because we're all tall. And one of my friends who's like five, six, come up to us. like, Hey, what's up? And all three of us were kind of joking. They're like, we don't speak short. away. So yeah, it's like, it's like the tall people in the club only.
Michelle Renee (2:12:24)
⁓ but no, all your heads are just like peering up over the top. Yeah.
I can't wait for AVN next year. I'm so glad I got to go this year. So you'll be back there if you're living in Vegas anyways. Yeah, well, if you end up filming for men.com and come to San Diego, let me know. Awesome.
Jake Apton (2:12:34)
But it's such a good experience. Hopefully, I'll be living in Vegas by that point.
Yes,
I hope to get back to my I had such a good experience with my I filmed two scenes with them and I had the most fun with them. They were even behind the scenes like so the one scene because this is like the Trader's spinoff that we did or the Trader's parody we did ⁓ because I was in like the Rob Roche role. I had to work with snakes at least like fake snakes. There was rubber snakes. I hate snakes. ⁓ So I really had to like to
Michelle Renee (2:12:54)
really?
Mmm.
Me too.
Jake Apton (2:13:12)
to act through it. Even though they're fake snakes, I'm like, I don't like this. But I had to do the role. But the cast was super great to work with. And I had a blast with it. I hated filming the snakes. I had such a good time, though. if I could plug, I'm now nominated for a grabby for that scene.
Michelle Renee (2:13:16)
Yeah.
I'm so glad.
Where do we find stuff about the grabbies?
Jake Apton (2:13:33)
So it's ⁓ voting is currently open for the grabbies. It's vote.grabbyawards.com I'm in eight categories. This is my first time being nominated and I'm in eight categories and I'm star shocked. Like I'm like actually shell shocked by it. So
Michelle Renee (2:13:37)
Okay. Okay. ⁓
Well, I'm gonna go look it up and I'll give you some votes.
Jake Apton (2:13:50)
So yeah,
I'm in, there's a couple of categories. Like I'm in, again, I'm in for best daddy. And I'm like, I don't think I deserve the title of best daddy, but okay.
Michelle Renee (2:13:59)
best daddy. want to,
I need my own voting for my own positions in my life. I have not had a daddy in a long time and I would really love a new, I think I'm ready for another daddy in my life.
Jake Apton (2:14:05)
Right.
I'm nominated
for best daddy, best verse, content creator, ⁓ performer of the year, best newcomer, best actor, and best body. ⁓ and best cock. I might have doubled up on one. But yeah.
Michelle Renee (2:14:25)
Jake,
feel like...
Jake Apton (2:14:29)
Thank you. I went from never being nominated. Even at the AVNs, wasn't nominated for anything. just was there.
Michelle Renee (2:14:30)
That's amazing.
I'm just intrigued by the fact that you're
nominated for best cock. Now I gotta go to, I'm assuming if I go to Twitter, I'll find, I'll find pictures.
Jake Apton (2:14:43)
I mean, it gets the job
done. wouldn't say it's the best, but it gets the job done.
Michelle Renee (2:14:47)
I'm just saying that's
what I loved about being at AVN. Literally Alex would just pull them up on X and I'm like, ⁓ I know exactly what you've got that you're working with. This is, and then I come home and I'm like, Paul, let me introduce you to Chad's Twitter account. yeah. Well, awesome. Well, when you live in Vegas, Chad's in Vegas. Who knows if I ever see Chad again, but ⁓ I'll forever crush on him a little bit, whether we ever try to hook up again or not. ⁓ He has my nerdy hearts.
Jake Apton (2:14:51)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Good to know.
Awesome.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (2:15:17)
So all the nerds should get together, which sounds like most of you are. So whatever, I'll be cheerleading.
Jake Apton (2:15:19)
No, I mean, anytime you want
to, if you want to get on here and only discuss nerds, I'm down for that too. Cause like, I run nerdy burlesque shows at the anime cons and that's always a fun time. I'm.
Michelle Renee (2:15:32)
Do you do any, have you got into you yourself? Have you got into any pole work?
Jake Apton (2:15:39)
I... So the ⁓ first couple clubs I worked at, actually just about every club I've worked at has had a pole. ⁓ Because I'm really tall, I have a weird center of gravity. So pole dancing is not something I'm just built for. Actually, I do have a pole in my apartment and like I can spin on it, I can hold myself up on it, but I can't do cool tricks. it's... ⁓
Michelle Renee (2:15:46)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I just I feel like
watching people on pole is like watching a fish tank. It just gets all of my attention. And I also have a thing for men in heels. And there's just Yeah, that's
Jake Apton (2:16:14)
I have a couple of friends like that, can, they use a pole and they just look effortless. They're just like floating through air on it. And I-
Michelle Renee (2:16:18)
Yeah, I'm like
trying to get Alex, Alex and my husband. I'm like, you all should take pole classes, even though you're both over, you know, pulse, pulse, not six, five, five, 11, I think, but still, I love to see all the men on poles.
Jake Apton (2:16:26)
Yeah.
It's I, yeah, anytime I try to do anything
interesting, I feel like I'm just like flailing around like a fish out of water.
Michelle Renee (2:16:39)
Well, it's probably
still hot to watch. Like, give people the benefit of you flailing. I don't know. Like, it's real, right? I think people love authentic.
Jake Apton (2:16:42)
Fuck.
Yeah.
And like when usually when I'm go go dancing, I have like my cowboy boots and my hat on and I usually like no matter what song is on, I usually slip into like a line dance style dancing and that's usually like unique enough that I can get away without having to use the pole. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (2:16:54)
Mm-hmm.
That's true, I have never seen, again, I don't do a bunch of strip
stuff, but I have not seen line dancing in those spaces.
Jake Apton (2:17:08)
I
have enough line dancing in my past that I can like usually pull a couple of steps here or there and like work it in and make it look good, even if it's not a like a full choreographed line dance to it. yeah.
Michelle Renee (2:17:18)
Yeah, I did a bunch of line dancing
in my like last year of high school, I think. I think that's when it was. I did a lot of line dancing.
Jake Apton (2:17:28)
And in New York City, I'm one of the only
people dancing in boots and a hat. So I see now anyway, it's, y'all, they say a bit of line dancing and they're like, ⁓ what's up? I'm like, yeah, yeehaw.
Michelle Renee (2:17:33)
Well, that's true.
You gotta
be careful not to get confused. Remember that guy that used to be in Times Square? I know if he still is. That the naked cowboy or whatever. You could do a parody of him. A better version probably.
Jake Apton (2:17:43)
yeah, thank you cowboy.
Good. I'm pretty sure it's
straight and he might be MAGA.
Michelle Renee (2:17:54)
⁓ so you should definitely do like some, we need a remake then maybe. Can you be like the naked not MAGA cowboy? I just, I was just stuck at BWI ⁓ in this four hour TSA line. Unfortunately, I was right behind two cops. I mean, they were off duty, but when ICE showed up, they're like,
Jake Apton (2:17:56)
I feel ⁓ like there's bad vibes with him, but... Yeah.
Gladly, absolutely gladly.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (2:18:21)
good. Isis here. And I go, well, weren't we just saying how calm everybody was and how like we're really impressed with how like nobody was having attitude or anything? I just to me, I feel like this is just going to stress out the crowd. And they're like, well, we're cops. And I go, yeah, well, my dad was a cop and he was an idiot. And I go, I guess we can agree probably that they at least gave you guys good PR and that they made you guys look better than they than cops have looked in a really long time.
Jake Apton (2:18:26)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (2:18:50)
So anyways, it was a long four hours to watch my tongue. And so anytime I can have to go back to the, need more or less, I need less MAGA in the world. So you can cosplay that at the the next colossal, is that what it was called? Is that at Cedar Point or is it just close by?
Jake Apton (2:18:52)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
So, but yeah.
Yeah, colossal kind.
⁓
no, it's not the Kalahari resort. ⁓ yeah. So.
Michelle Renee (2:19:22)
Okay, yeah, I know what you're about. Cool.
All right, Mr. Jake.
Jake Apton (2:19:27)
My absolute pleasure being here. Thank you for having me. Absolutely.
Michelle Renee (2:19:28)
We'll do a virtual coffee at some point. Maybe
jump on with Alex and shoot the ship.
Jake Apton (2:19:34)
Yeah. And next time I'm in San Diego, I will definitely let you know. Yeah, definitely.
Michelle Renee (2:19:38)
Please do. If you ever need a I'm sure you don't need a place
to stay, but I always welcome people to come crash at my place. I have this nice cuddle space. So you can, I let people use my office. Anyways, oxytocin. I'm going to add serotonin and ⁓ dopamine, but at first I was like, just this. And then I was like, but I have more space and I have more chemicals. So I'll keep building it out. Awesome.
Jake Apton (2:19:49)
What's the chemical behind you?
Don't meet.
I love that.
Awesome. All right. You as well take care. See you.
Michelle Renee (2:20:06)
All right. Have a wonderful rest of your evening. Thanks for giving me so much time. Talk to you soon. Bye.
