Dr Jamie Marich

In this episode of "The Intimacy Lab," Michelle Renee and Jamie Marich explore the intersections of intimacy, therapy, and personal growth. They discuss their experiences with EMDR, the concept of "Misfit Alley," and the importance of authenticity in both personal and professional spaces. The conversation delves into the nuances of human connection, the role of dissociation in therapy, and the evolving landscape of platonic and sexual relationships. Both hosts share personal anecdotes, highlighting the significance of energy and vibe in relationships, and the balance between independence and intimacy.

Dr. Jamie Marich (she/they) is a TEDx speaker, clinical trauma specialist, expressive artist, and recovery advocate who helps people and systems heal from trauma and shame—especially where religion or spirituality has caused harm—so they can find personalized, stigma-free transformation. Based in Akron, Ohio, Jamie teaches internationally on trauma, EMDR therapy, expressive arts, and spiritual abuse, while running a private practice and online education programs; she’s also the founder of the Institute for Creative Mindfulness and creator of the Dancing Mindfulness approach. A queer woman in long-term recovery who lives with dissociative identities, Jamie is the author of numerous books on EMDR, trauma, and recovery, and her work has been featured by The New York Times and recognized with advocacy awards from NALGAP and EMDRIA. You can find her at https://jamiemarich.com/ or on IG at https://www.instagram.com/drjamiem/

Michelle Renee (she/her) is a therapeutic intimacy specialist, trained as both a Cuddle Therapist and Surrogate Partner, and a co-owner at ⁠https://Cuddlist.com⁠. She practices a trauma-informed, consent-based approach that helps folks of all genders rebuild trust with touch, set clear boundaries, and access authentic pleasure ... at their own pace. She serves clients nationwide as a holistic intimacy coach and partners with therapists to integrate somatic, consent-based healing.

Michelle's websites are⁠ ⁠https://meetmichellerenee.com⁠⁠⁠ and⁠ ⁠https://humanconnectionlab.com⁠⁠ and she can be found on social media at⁠ ⁠https://instagram.com/meetmichellerenee⁠⁠.

If you’d like to ask a question for Michelle to answer on an episode, or you’d like to join her for an Intimacy Lab Experience, visit ⁠https://intimacylabpodcast.com⁠.

To grab your own set of We’re Not Really Strangers ⁠https://amzn.to/47XJjvm⁠

Become a Cuddlist Certified Touch Practitioner and save 10%: ⁠https://cuddlist.podia.com/cuddlist-certification/6dnxo?coupon=REFERRAL⁠

Rough Transcript:

Michelle Renee (00:20)

Hi everybody, welcome back to the intimacy lab. I'm so excited that you're here. I don't do these very often. So Jamie, you brought me back out of my cave of like rarely doing these, but the idea of meeting you in this different space was so stinking intriguing to me. how do I?

Jamie Marich (she/they) (00:40)

I like bringing

people out of their caves. It's a skill I have.

Michelle Renee (00:44)

Well, I

feel very, I don't know, I'm having a little fangirlish moment here because, so I knew a lot about you. I think you knew a lot about me too before we met, but I knew a lot about you because A, we know people. One of the therapists I collaborate with is friends with you. I have other people that are intertwined with each other. ⁓ I read Dissociation Made Simple.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (01:00)

We know people.

A good friend of mine,

Michelle Renee (01:14)

Loved it, added it to the Cuddlist training because I thought it was really a great if you're working in, really, if you're working with people, you should know a bit about dissociation and be able to kind of normalize it. What else? I'm super intrigued about a lot of your religious writings, but I haven't got there yet on my list of all the books I'm reading because I've kind of paused my book interest. I'm really in podcast right now and I have to wait for that to come back.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (01:17)

⁓

Mmm.

Is okay?

Michelle Renee (01:44)

⁓

but yeah, I just heard so many cool things about you. You've you, everybody that I know that knows you just talks about you a lot. And so I met you. I'll let you say what you're, whatever you want to say about me, but I met you finally at the EMD RIA conference in Anaheim in September. We got to

Jamie Marich (she/they) (02:06)

Our booths

were blessedly placed together.

Michelle Renee (02:09)

happy accident. It was so, so we had a lovely little cohort of queerness. I just want to say like

Jamie Marich (she/they) (02:10)

We were neighbors. ⁓

Beautifully put

Michelle Renee (02:21)

Yeah, because Jamie was there, the book Queering EMDR was launching at the conference. Cuddlist is a very queer owned and run company. And so for us to be next to each other, I don't know. I don't know if you identify, I'm pretty sure I could answer this for you. I don't know if you identify as a misfit, but I definitely as the touch people in a talk therapy space, we are totally the misfit. And so it was just kind of nice to have like a little

Misfit Alley

Jamie Marich (she/they) (02:51)

Well, yes, definitely, like Misfit Alley, that's a great podcast name right there. I definitely identify as misfit. And what made that connection even more special is I've long been this rebel misfit person in my field, in my professional field. And even in the EMDR space, which can be a little more open to somatic things, am a pain in the butt to a lot of people and ask questions and say things that are definitely in Misfit Alley. ⁓

So it was particularly special to be there, not only because my company was launching Queering EMDR, a compendium ⁓ anthology of different queer experiences of EMDR therapists. Well, I should say queer EMDR therapists, you know what I mean. You can interpret that anyway you wish. But just to have this great community right there on Misfit Alley was a special conference for me.

Michelle Renee (03:45)

It absolutely did. It absolutely did. And that's something that I'm drawn to when I meet a therapist. If they're a little rogue, then I'm like, ⁓ we're going to be friends. Like, we're going to either work together or just hang out together or whatever that is. ⁓ In the misfit realm of EMDR, I don't know if we've actually talked about it. You've probably heard about it. I've been holding a client through EMDR sessions with their therapist in person.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (03:53)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Right?

This is ⁓

Michelle Renee (04:12)

Whenever

I'm in their town, I get to join them for their session and it is intense. It is magical. It is as much as it's intense, it's easier for me because like I'm used to holding this client in a one-on-one space. And when the stuff comes up, I don't have to hold it up by myself. It's so nice to have their therapist there. And ⁓ yeah, so one day there's going to be a case study on it. So hold on tight.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (04:18)

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Well,

a lot of wise people have said we can heal in community. So that feels like a very good example of that.

Michelle Renee (04:48)

Yeah, yeah, it's it's almost like what I would consider a weird version of psychedelic therapy and that you go to such an altered mind space that it's super cool. ⁓ So so that's fun in talk about like pushing the limits of what the generally EMDR community, I assume, would say because it's not my world. But I will say that is the that is the the conference where I've never been asked more.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (04:53)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (05:17)

But what's the science? I've never been asked more.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (05:22)

I have lot of feelings about that question.

Michelle Renee (05:26)

Mm-hmm, I know you do, because I read your stuff.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (05:28)

⁓ Well, I wrote a piece recently called Therapy is Not a Science. And I say this from the place of I am not anti-science, I am anti-scientism. And that is a word that a religious scholar, Houston Smith, put out. He wrote The World Religions. It's a great text that we read as interfaith people. And it acknowledges the same thing, that if science gives us valuable inquiry and knowledge,

And by science, think what the people at the conference were asking you is what about the hard science, the empirical, the things you could measure with numbers. But even what's the research? It's like who's research and what forms? Because qualitative research, which is designed to more capture lived experience, case studies, this can be research as well. Unfortunately, especially in EMDR world, which has had to work hard to legitimize itself because it seemed weird as all get out 30 some years ago.

Michelle Renee (06:04)

What's the research?

Mm-hmm.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (06:26)

most of the Western mainstream. It's not weird. I will die on that hill. It's how Western knowledge and the mind perceives it. I mean, I think it's a valid question, yet it's science even itself just means the acquisition of knowledge. And there are more ways to acquire knowledge than specifically empirical research. This conversation is an acquisition of knowledge, is a sharing.

Michelle Renee (06:35)

Mm-hmm.

What

it it felt like is like, did you want me to lay out all these areas of study like polyvagal and all these things and like connect the dots for you? Is that what your your you need me to connect the dots for you? Okay. Anyways, we should pause. Jamie, would you introduce yourself because probably not everybody listening to this knows who you are.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (07:06)

people have, I'm sure.

Well, we identify in many ways. Professionally, we are Dr. Jamie Marich, EMDR approved, EIA approved trainer. We've written three books on EMDR. We're considered a bit of a maverick in the EMDR world. I hate that word maverick. rogue? I liked your word rogue better. ⁓ That's our professional moniker. ⁓ Personally, please just call us Jamie. We also use the system named the Unicorn System.

You can read many layers into the word unicorn. That is very much who we are as a person, as a collective. And ⁓ the Jamie part of us, as we often say, thinks a lot of the field we're in has just missed the mark and is bullshit in a lot of ways. And feel that we've lost our essence and connection to what you're so good at, which is, look, it's right behind you, human connection and healing through relationship.

Michelle Renee (08:02)

Yeah.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (08:14)

And another hat or horn, so to speak, that we're wearing lately is we're also an interfaith seminary student right now. We're scheduled to get ordained in the fall of 2026 in interfaith ministry. We're doing a pretty intense program right now that is absolutely filling our soul in that it is very affirming and very uplifting and does help expand this inquiry of knowledge to not just the realm of things that can be measured.

yet also to the realm of things that can be mysterious and maybe not so easily explained by the laws of science.

Michelle Renee (08:53)

Sure, sure.

Well, I do, I will say I don't get to read every one of your sub stacks. But so often they just get left unread in my email inbox because I want to go back to them. But what usually pulls me in is that we do have a few overlapping friends and colleagues that will then repost it. And I'm like, ⁓ I really better get to that one. Right. ⁓

Jamie Marich (she/they) (09:00)

it's okay. I wouldn't expect everybody to.

Yes. Cool.

Michelle Renee (09:20)

Akilah Riley Richardson, if she shares something of yours, I'm on it. Yeah. Yeah. We have a lot of overlap, you and me, that we didn't realize. I think didn't we decide that we were at Akilah's birthday party together, we didn't even realize it? Because we didn't know of each other at the time. Yeah. So interesting. I love this world. And I hate it.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (09:22)

⁓ love a kill. ⁓

And we didn't realize it. Yeah, that was other than my personal experience. Right? Mm-hmm.

I do too.

So I'm going to put out an idea that will rub some people the wrong way, admittedly. But I think doing any work as a therapist, as a helping professional, as a facilitator, as working in ministry, you can develop this sense of both loving people to death and also being incredibly burned out by people and the world. And it is okay. Many things can be true at the same time.

Michelle Renee (10:08)

Yeah. And I think as I start to like, unpeel and discover my own neurodivergence, I'm putting together some of those pieces of like the injustice or like these different things that I feel very, I get very caught up and passionate about and I see where it shows up in ⁓ our world. So, take a deep breath, Michelle. I don't need to go down that road. We're here for fun today. ⁓

Jamie Marich (she/they) (10:14)

Lovely.

Another episode, another episode.

Michelle Renee (10:38)

No, if I

have you on another episode, gosh, the things I want, we could probably do many because I was, I was actually in conversation with one of our mutuals recently and we were in a talk about religion and they were like, I would love to see you discuss this with Jamie. And I was like, yeah, it would be really fascinating to me. ⁓ So one of these other days, and again, maybe it's over drinks and another.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (10:52)

Mm-hmm.

We can do

it to celebrate my ordination later this year. Exactly. Great. Like Jamie's ordination celebration. I'm in Ohio, right by the PA border. ⁓

Michelle Renee (11:03)

my gosh, yes, please invite me.

Yeah, you're Ohio, right? Is that where you're based?

⁓ great.

Yeah. You know, I was raised in Michigan, so I'm raised to hate Ohio. ⁓

Jamie Marich (she/they) (11:18)

Mm-hmm. Of course, it's

in our DNA, yet we can overcome that. May that be a lesson.

Michelle Renee (11:23)

But I

love a good Buckeye at Christmas. Anyways. Okay. So here's the fun thing, audience, is that when I introduced, I don't remember how it came up that I had a podcast, but you were like, I want to come on. And I was like, ⁓ I should caveat this. I talk about lots of different varieties of topics. Many of my episodes run into the kind of not safe for work zone.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (11:25)

Excellent.

Michelle Renee (11:51)

And I don't want somebody doing something and then regretting that they've attached their name to this thing and la, la, la. But you were like, no, I want to do this. And let's make it spicy. So we're playing the triple X box of ⁓ We're Not Really Strangers. And ⁓ I can't not fully disclose. We have preselected our questions out because we are both professionals.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (11:59)

I do.

Yes.

Okay.

Michelle Renee (12:20)

And this is the one box that I get a little every time I touch it on this podcast, I do kind of weigh my own privacy. And I am a very open person, very open person.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (12:32)

about

that though, because you, because I do a lot with self-disclosure now, being so out about my own mental health status. And you could be a very open person. You can be somebody who's committed to the values of self-disclosure and authenticity. And you also don't owe everybody your story. You have a right to privacy. You have a right to it based on context. And so I think we're modeling that here, that even as open people, there are certain things in this forum we will talk about and other things.

Michelle Renee (12:35)

Mm-hmm.

Yes, absolutely.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (13:02)

We'll save for the next misfit alley at a conference.

Michelle Renee (13:06)

Yes,

absolutely. ⁓ I am very open and there's been and I do like you said, like I do get to choose what I we're all in choice and there are some things I don't need. I am open enough to hopefully inspire other people to take some chances or explore new areas of their life. But there are times I re-listen to my own podcast and I go, did I say that?

All right, there's people that come up to me that like know me and community and stuff and they're like, mentioned something and I'm like, did I say that on the podcast? my like, yeah, kids, I always say kids.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (13:44)

I use

that too when people will say, you wrote this thing. And I said, did I? And then I go back, I did. I get.

Michelle Renee (13:52)

So fun fact,

I'm getting ready ⁓ later next week, midweek. I'm headed off to AVN, which is the adult video news or network. I'm not sure what N stands for. It's a big adult entertainment expo ⁓ because I'm curious. I'm a curious kitten, as I said the other day, and I am going for the stories because I'm going to come back with plenty, right? But I'm going for free because I'm going to work a booth for a product called Dr. Tush.

which is like an anal aftercare product. And I'm so excited. We have our Cuddlist t-shirts on today, by the way. Yes, Jamie, I collaborate with Cuddlist. ⁓

Jamie Marich (she/they) (14:27)

Thank

I got this

as a giveaway on Misfit Alley and it is one of the top three most comfortable t-shirts I have. So I wear it.

Michelle Renee (14:34)

Yep.

⁓

I love that. I don't have to go. I'm not, I don't have to. I'm not going as a Cuddlist. I really get to go to conspaces, not repping for Cuddlist. And so I'm so excited that I get to wear all my naughty shirts, like, and I get to talk about butt stuff for like four days. And so I'm just like, I'm so excited. So I'll be wearing like my butthole whisperer t-shirt and like, you know, ⁓ assleet. Like it's going to be a theme. Anyways.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (14:56)

See

Love it.

Michelle Renee (15:08)

sound.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (15:09)

Now word that to Andrea next year. I triple dog dare you.

Michelle Renee (15:12)

Keely will kill me, I'm pretty sure. my goodness. Okay, so we're going to start in level one and we approved a handful of cards. I'm still going to pick one so it'll be a mystery. We can come back if we have more time and answer more. But ⁓ what are you most attracted to that isn't physical? And we're both going to answer these. So if you need a little time to think, you can think.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (15:16)

Alright, let's hear some your numbers.

vibe is really what it can I expand then or do you just want like a lot

Michelle Renee (15:42)

vibe.

You can

expand all you want. We have as much time as we have. Like I know you have a hard limit, but we can talk these. We've talked them as long as we want to. I don't mind if it's not hard, but.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (15:53)

We're going there anyway.

So vibe, because I even say that in professional contexts as well. Like I feel we vibe together professionally. And when I give folks advice on seeking out a therapist, it's very much, you got to notice that vibe thing. Like when you're dating, that some people may feel really qualified on paper. And I always say it's kind of like dating, give therapy three sessions to see if it feels like a good fit and if you're not.

Michelle Renee (16:07)

Mm-hmm.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (16:26)

clocking that vibe. ⁓ And it's interesting because even my friend who was really pivotal in me getting together with my current partner, she used the phrase, you two vibe so well together. It's just something I notice and we do. so vibe, it's like energetic thing you can't quite put words to.

Michelle Renee (16:49)

Okay, so my answer is very similar. I'm just going to word it differently because I'm thinking about a very specific lover that I have right now. By the way, people at home, ⁓ turning 50 has put me back in my slut era. I'm so excited because I was very much like, I don't even want to be around sex for a while. I was going through a thing and I am like, Stella got her groove back kind of thing. And some of it was because of this lover.

I met him at a friend's ⁓ potluck and we had nice conversations, fine. But the hug that I got at the end of that, was, so it's the for you, for me it's that energy. Like how does it feel to be in your personal space, let alone have your hands on me, wrapped around me? ⁓ There was...

Jamie Marich (she/they) (17:38)

Thank you.

Michelle Renee (17:44)

So I used to facilitate cuddle parties and there was an exercise and cuddle party called the hug exercise. And you would go around and ask everyone for a hug or not. You didn't have to, but you also wanted to give at least a couple of nos. And I was doing it from a place of who do I want to cuddle with later? Because that hug can tell you so much. And in this, with this, this particular person, I started to watch the, the event app that we have in our kind of alternative community space here in San Diego.

I started to watch it hoping I would come across his profile. Cause I didn't get like his digits or anything like that. And then, and then the next potluck came around and he was there again and I still didn't get his number. I am a little slow. Like doing the thing doesn't happen fast for me sometimes. And then just happenstance, I host a happy hour for mental health pros here in San Diego. And he was walking down the sidewalk right in front of the event.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (18:16)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (18:41)

And I saw him and I was like, stop, I need a hug from you and we need to trade information. then like ever, like we don't see each other very often, but it's just, it's the vibe that I get so high on rather, I mean, we could, this, this, just say this, the sex is fine. It's the flood of oxytocin that we are able to, to conjure up together that is intoxicating. So.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (19:02)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (19:10)

That's my, is, is the, the energy that somebody has is just good stuff. Good, good stuff. And I would even say this, and I say this, this is not a person that I would see at a bar and go pick up.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (19:16)

I love that question. Thanks, Reanne.

Michelle Renee (19:29)

But the energy is like, ugh, so good. Okay, ready for next level? Okay, I'm shuffling, shuffling, I'm not watching. Okay.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (19:38)

Like we hear you shuffling.

Michelle Renee (19:43)

What turns you on the most about the last person you had sex with? And this is so funny because I told Jamie this is the one I really want to answer and I swear to God I actually drew this without making sure that I drew this.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (20:00)

Wow, ⁓ I mean my general therapist answer is connection, because it is my partner I'm talking about, and it's both the sense of bodies fitting together and energy fitting together. ⁓ I mean I could get into some private details that I won't, but.

That's my general answer with it, because I am definitely, and I'll share this, because I think it relates to the dissociation contact we had before. I can have sex and put the dissociative wall up. I know how to do that. I've done so much of that over the years. And I may still get some physical pleasure from it, but it's really nothing very special. And I feel often like I'd rather just stay in bed and read a book than have that kind of sex often. And... ⁓

Michelle Renee (20:49)

Mm-hmm.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (20:54)

Yeah, but when energetic connection on all your levels are there, physical, emotional, sexual for me. And sometimes I've had decent sex where like just two of them are there or maybe just one of them is there. Like it's not, don't have to dissociate necessarily if all three aren't there. But yeah, what turns me on the most is when you have that boom, like perfect fusion of the three. So, and I'll give you this one more thing too. Like, ⁓

Michelle Renee (21:16)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (21:24)

because I just want to normalize this.

I can experience that with people of a variety of body types. ⁓ Like I like dad bods, I do. Yeah, just putting that out there. So what about you? What's your answer? ⁓ response.

Michelle Renee (21:46)

Yeah. Well, I want to say to to

riff off of yours a little bit. I don't know how much you know about my background. I'm going to guess you don't know anything.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (22:44)

the bits

you told me on Miss Fidelity, but anything you want.

Michelle Renee (22:46)

My 18 year

first marriage was ⁓ primarily coercive sex. So I remember towards the end of our marriage, which was actually the best part of our marriage, I remember the first time I wasn't dissociated during sex. I was like, wow, I'm actually present. Which is such a sad thing to think about. There's a lot of grief there.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (22:55)

Hmm, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Michelle Renee (23:15)

But

then at the same time, like I remember having somebody compliment me about how present I am during sex. And I was like, boy, if you knew where I came from, right? But it's, yeah, ⁓ I just wanted to say I totally got, totally get the dissociation of getting through sex.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (23:21)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And

on this, I do have to have a sense of safe enough to be present during sex for sure. And then when I am beyond safe enough and truly safe and truly connected, sometimes I'm so present it overwhelms me. But then I find that hard.

Michelle Renee (23:51)

⁓ what does what does it

I have an idea what that means when you say overwhelmed. How does that present itself in your space when you're overwhelmed?

Jamie Marich (she/they) (24:01)

I can get very overheated physically. I'm also 46. So I'm in that perimenopausal alley where that that is a factor in it. But even in earlier parts of my life, it's very much an overheated thing. ⁓ Sometimes it's it's an out of breath thing. ⁓ It's like, do I say this publicly? Yes. I personally have never really struggled with orgasming. It's just

Michelle Renee (24:05)

Mm.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (24:29)

I am a multi-energizer bunny. When I get overwhelmed, it's like they just don't stop. So that's where it does feel very hot. And it's just one big... Exciting.

Michelle Renee (24:42)

That's where I,

um, did you ever know who Betty Dodson was?

Jamie Marich (she/they) (24:46)

Remind me, I know this name.

Michelle Renee (24:48)

She

was the grandmother of masturbation. Yes. So I took her course, Body Sex, in 2014. was like highlight. Like this is how I got into my work was that I found her right before my divorce happened. I say she walked me out of my divorce. I really was focused on doing better with my orgasm. I was not an easy orgasmer. It's a weird combination of words together. ⁓

Jamie Marich (she/they) (24:51)

Yes.

Yeah.

Right?

Michelle Renee (25:19)

So my focus was working on my own sexuality, coming out of a really unhealthy sex relationship, right? So like, that was really important. And part of what, I mean, that's why I do the work that I do now is really, Betty Dodson was the origin of that. ⁓ But what was really interesting is she used to use a phrase where she'd say, I'm a sex pig. And when I get in that space where, you know, you're kind of rolling through the orgasms and I'm like, I just want to be a pig.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (25:42)

Okay.

Michelle Renee (25:48)

I'm just going to roll around in this like a pit of mud, right? And just sop it up and be in all of my glory. Yeah, yeah, it's a good space. It's a great space to be. Yes, love that. For me, when I get overwhelmed, it's tears. It's like sensory overwhelm happens and I will just start crying. It's really fun. I notice it happens in like sensation play. I'll get.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (25:49)

Yeah.

you

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Michelle Renee (26:16)

sensationally like overwhelmed and I just start crying.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (26:20)

I can experience tears. ⁓ Yes.

Michelle Renee (26:25)

But I also

cry after a good orgasm, so it's part of my negotiations.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (26:31)

I'm different is for me. I don't know if tears are a sign that I'm overwhelmed

Michelle Renee (26:37)

Yeah.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (26:38)

what they are a sign of. mean, often it's just like the beauty of the experience. Yeah, I've had those icky tears too, but we'll not talk about that today.

Michelle Renee (26:43)

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Well, I think I've already talked about it on here, but I had a moment where I had that, I was able to, in a sexual space with my husband, we hit on something that brought up the memories from my first marriage. And I just like timed out and I wanted to feel it all so I could almost like complete the loop. And I just curled into a fetal position and just balled and let all the feelings show up. And he just helped me cause he's a delightful human being.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (27:03)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (27:20)

And then we had a really great success. But you know, got to clear out the old stuff and make room for the new stuff. ⁓ OK, so my answer. ⁓ What turns you on the most about last person? OK, so I had to brag about this. ⁓ I have not hooked up with a sex ed colleague in so many years.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (27:40)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (27:42)

And I have played now twice with a sexological body worker. And it is talk about touch aware. Oh my gosh. And like how he's also a massage therapist. And so he's so attuned and can read all the energy of your body. And it feels like the most decadent dessert that I could

ever give myself is to see him when I'm in his town. So I am loving that. That is a good, ⁓ a really great piece of my life. So what turns me on about this person is that he has that, ⁓ I'm in a phase, I don't know if you even want to touch on this for yourself, but I'll talk about it for myself. As I've approached 50, now I am 50, but the last I think

three years, so about where you're at right now. I have wanted incredibly slow sex. I want incredibly light touch. And that is not how I've always been. And I don't know if it's that I just tolerated a lot of wide varieties of contact. And now that sex has gotten a little more complicated and whatnot, I'm learning to fine tune it. It started on a mushroom trip one time where I was like,

Jamie Marich (she/they) (28:47)

Hmm.

Okay.

Michelle Renee (29:08)

dialing the penetration right, like I was tuning a car engine and I was like, nope, little slower, a little slower, a little slower. And ever since then, I've just really loved really incredibly slow touch. And he does this well.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (29:23)

So I,

that's so cool. My response to that is I tend to enjoy the whole menu depending on the context. Now that I am going through some pain and some life change stuff, ⁓ I do find, I've always liked the slow touch though, depending on the context, because I like the variety, but I find it especially nourishing now when my body is feeling like a bit of you know.

Michelle Renee (29:49)

Yeah. At the same time,

I like a good squeeze and a roughness. And if you saw my back right now, I look like I just had cupping done, but there are these intense bite hickey marks all over my back right now. So it's not just soft and slow, right? It's like, but on my vulva, that's what I tend to gravitate towards. So, so good.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (29:56)

yeah.

Awesome.

Mm-hmm.

It's a menu.

Let it be a menu.

Michelle Renee (30:19)

⁓

In an event, I also like an event. don't like it's not generally like it like especially when it's not my husband because it's like you don't see that person is like I want you to block off a chunk of time. Like we need like a lot of time because it's ⁓ it's a menu. It's a menu and it's it's a mini course meal. OK. Level three, OK.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (30:23)

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Thank

Yes.

Michelle Renee (30:49)

We only picked out one of these just because it was hard to find one that would. Yeah. Do you have a sexual soulmate and do they know that they're your sexual soulmate?

Jamie Marich (she/they) (30:51)

Okay, I forget what it is already, so I'll still be surprised.

Yes and yes. I'll stay right.

Michelle Renee (31:03)

grapes.

Yeah, this is one of the things where I love my husband and I'm so glad that he doesn't have an ego. And he is the sweetest wonderful most wonderful person because I will say this he's not my sexual if I have one soulmate, let's just assume we know we have more than one soulmate, but whatever. If I had one sexual soulmate, it is a friend of mine.

who I haven't seen in years now, but there was a period of years where we would hook up once in a while. And it was like we were built for each other. Like everything just clicked so well from the sex itself to his anatomy and how it clicked with my body. was like, to be graphic, his penis would hit.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (31:51)

There's nothing like that kind of complimentary.

Michelle Renee (31:58)

just at the door of my cervix. Right? There was no like it just it was it was like somebody else designed this. And I was it was a very good time of my life. a very good time of my life. Yeah.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (32:01)

Nice.

No.

That is amazing. And to the whole thing of soul mates, ⁓ I don't really like the term, even though when you ask me the question, it's like, So this is from a friend of mine who does a lot of work in the intuitive psychic space, a student of Edgar Cayce's lineage. And Edgar Cayce, the 1920s psychic celebrity, former Baptist minister, grew up in the world. Really cool stuff in metaphysics.

Michelle Renee (32:23)

I don't use it.

Okay.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (32:43)

He talks about the idea of soul groups rather than soul mates, which I think is something especially Poly people can ⁓ connect with, which is, it's not just one, but we tend to have soul groups or soul families, people we come into this life with who we have met before.

Michelle Renee (32:46)

Mmm.

Hmmmm

Jamie Marich (she/they) (33:00)

in other lifetimes, energetic spaces. And yeah, even though like I adore the partner I have now and that's who I said yes to and I hope they're listening, he's listening. ⁓ I will say, and I wrote about this in the memoir, like You Lied to Me about God, several memorable sexual partnerships that ended up being the most unhealthy relationships.

Michelle Renee (33:31)

Well, yeah, those two are not necessarily the same thing.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (33:34)

And I can look back at it now with, thank God that relationship didn't work out and I was spared of that and whatnot. Yet I still have good memories of what I've, especially what the memories are, what I learned about myself sexually in those encounters. And yeah, a lot of it sometimes is just the memory of what was shared and yeah.

So I, and I have experienced that with all genders. So I think it's a great question and a great discussion.

Michelle Renee (34:10)

Yeah, I don't use soul mates or anything like that either. And honestly, you don't, again, you don't know a lot about me. And maybe this is like catching up the listeners of my, my journey. I also have adamantly not called myself polyamorous for a long time.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (34:18)

Well, I'm learning. ⁓

I

want to hear about this because I have some feelings on this word too.

Michelle Renee (34:28)

Yeah.

Yeah. I'm in an interesting space right now where I think this weekend, this weekend I'm going to do some MDMA and I think this is going to come up in some of that space that I want to work through what my hesitation is. Cause I, there's a part of me that clearly walks through the world as a very full of, I often said,

Jamie Marich (she/they) (34:46)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (34:49)

I don't have space for more partners because my clients are my polyamory. Like there's so much that gets thrown into my work that I don't have the spoons for more than that. But I'm just loving some people so much right now that it's making me reconsider the word. It doesn't change how I walk through the world by any means, but I think I have an aversion to it because I've watched it from a place of like what

Jamie Marich (she/they) (35:07)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (35:18)

Poly is supposed to be. ⁓

And the... I'm not a big fan of a lot of emotional paperwork.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (35:28)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle Renee (35:29)

And so I've had this conversation a couple of years ago. I coined the term I thought would make great merch that says I suck at poly, but it'd be like a succulent because I want something that's a low maintenance garden, right? I'm not one to want to start with a baby seedling. I need you to come in a solid four inch pot at least, right? That has already

Jamie Marich (she/they) (35:39)

Nice. ⁓

Michelle Renee (35:57)

gone through the growing pains, the root building ⁓ that can handle being left alone. I'm very like even in my in my relationship with my husband, we're incredibly independent people. ⁓ I adore him. We're wonderful partners in the sense that we both are kind of like parallel play people. We don't have a lot of overlap in our interest.

but we have a lot of overlap in what we value and how much we appreciate what we bring into each other's lives, right?

I look at some Poly and I'm just like, well, here's the thing I don't want to do is I don't want to have somebody going, but you haven't paid this much attention to me and I haven't heard from you in three weeks. And like, I'm not that person. Even though I used to be, because I used to harp on my husband before we were married about when we first started dating, I'd be like, I never hear from you. And he doesn't come, he's he's younger, he's 12 years younger than me.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (36:49)

Right.

Michelle Renee (37:04)

He didn't have a whole lot of long-term relationship experience when I met him. It was supposed to be a catch and release situation. I was just having a good time. And so I'd say, I never hear from you. And he's like, I talk to my mom once a week and that's my mom. And I'm like, you're not fucking your mom. I would think that because you're fucking me, I would hear from you. Yeah.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (37:21)

Hmm.

Somebody

put, somebody put, I'm sorry, go ahead.

Michelle Renee (37:33)

No, so I was gonna say back then I was also very anxiously attached. I feel like it's taken 10 years in this relationship to where I am now and this is part of this whole like thinking about all these things and also my slut revolution is that I'm feeling so secure in this relationship that I'm feeling like I can start to take risks again, which is how I used to be when I first got divorced. I was like something scared me. I went and ran towards it.

And then I got in this really wonderful relationship where I felt incredibly, like I was doing a lot of re-wiring of how relationships can be. And I got to a place where I just wanted to rest and quit working on myself in a way. And so to close, not that we ever closed up the relationship for very long, but I just felt like, why rock the boat? Everything is good.

And now I think I'm just feeling, I'm feeling good enough.

I'm feeling enough safety to start being risky. And I say risky in a positive way, not in a negative way. I just built my vision board for 2026. And the first word, and I had this word on there for quite a few days before I added to it, but I love the word sturdy, is my favorite adjective for myself. When people describe me as sturdy, I am like, yeah. Like I went and saw, I went to Sequoia in the fall and like,

Jamie Marich (she/they) (38:38)

Yeah.

Okay? Okay? Good.

It worked!

Michelle Renee (39:05)

boy, do I resonate with those trees. like, it's my thing. But I added to it the other day, I noticed what I wanted to add was the word risky. And so I put sturdy and risky because it's like an interesting, I feel sturdy enough to be risky.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (39:15)

Mm-hmm.

Hmm. Funny way, not funny. think my association with the word sturdy, I don't know if anybody listening knows the TV show Archer. It's a great cartoon. One of the characters Pam Poovey, who I so identify with in her initial script, they describe her as a sturdy bisexual. And you don't even need to know Archer to get it other than when I read that phrase sturdy bisexual, I said, yes, I get it. I love that that I ⁓

Michelle Renee (39:31)

I know a little bit, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (39:51)

That's a great word. That's a great word for your year.

Michelle Renee (39:52)

Yeah.

I don't, it's interesting. I'm a sturdy asexual. How's that? A sturdy sex favorable asexual if we have to broaden out all these little sub labels. Yeah.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (39:58)

Alright.

⁓ Yes, but going back

to the labels with like polyamory, for instance, I mean, I've exposed this and you lied to me about God that I've been in and out of various roles in the ENM world, Ethical Nonmonogamy world for about 10 years.

Michelle Renee (40:08)

Mm-hmm.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (40:22)

I saw a post the other day that just really spoke to me that you can conceptually love the idea of polyamory and realize I just don't have the energetic resources to do it. And that's a lot of where I'm at. And I celebrate my friends who thrive in that identifier and in polycules and various relationships that are more specifically relationships. I just know.

Michelle Renee (40:35)

Mm-hmm.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (40:50)

I don't have the spoons for it. And I mean, I have been in places before I've identified a solo poly as the bisexual, the sturdy bisexual, the unicorn, if you will. ⁓ Yet when I am in a solid partnership, I tend to really just want to be focused because I want to put my energy. And I write that in memoir too. ⁓ So that's me, but not...

Michelle Renee (41:13)

Yeah.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (41:19)

it doesn't fit for anyone else.

Michelle Renee (41:21)

think we're really similar there. I often say I'm a pair bonder.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (41:25)

Okay.

Michelle Renee (41:26)

But like, I also love having a wide variety of ways to connect with my friends is how I generally word it. And it's just that if my friendships were like rings of a tree, there's some that are closer to the center of that tree than others. And usually they have the name wife in front of them. Like I'll say like, I have my San Diego wife and my Michigan wife and my work wife. You know what I mean? Like there's something in

Jamie Marich (she/they) (41:32)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Michelle Renee (41:55)

in it that's extra. ⁓

I kind of, people hear me say that they go, you're kind of like a relationship anarchist in a way. Yeah, maybe a little bit. Sprinkle of this, a sprinkle of that if you've got to put labels on everything. But I'm a huge fan of doing things the way that they work for you. And that's where I've been doing a lot of like, I didn't grow up with healthy relationship modeling. And I get a lot of that from what I read and what I, know, I have to look around for it. And so there's this kind of idea that,

Jamie Marich (she/they) (42:14)

Yes.

Michelle Renee (42:30)

you can be too independent in a relationship. And that makes me go, are we doing this wrong? And I look at Paul and I'm like, we're really independent, but we talk about it. I'm not worried that one of us is holding something back and saying, I'm missing something because we're so separate in a lot of ways. Because we're also incredibly ⁓ intimate, emotionally, spiritually, sexually. Like, there's a lot of intimacy in our relationship, even though we're very ⁓

⁓ What is the word? ⁓ Differentiated. Which is not the norm that society teaches you. You we want to not be all enmeshed, but boy, does Disney want you to be enmeshed. Right? So yeah, I'm with you.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (43:15)

Yes.

Cool. So what else we got, Ms. Fidali? All that's the end of the.

Michelle Renee (43:21)

Yeah.

Well, I know

you have an end. I want to address the fact that I think it's super fun that we're in our Cuddlist gear and we just talked about sex for like the last 45 minutes or so.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (43:33)

I love that this is probably the first podcast interview I've ever done, and I do a lot of them, where I got to talk about sex and ENM and EMDR and MDRI. Specifically, all in the same conversation. The views expressed by me do not necessarily express the views of anyone.

Michelle Renee (43:43)

All in the same, all in the same space.

Same thing, the views expressed by me do not express the views of Cuddlist although they

kind of do. I I'm not going to say, you I think it's interesting. The platonic touch world has come a long ways in the last 10 years. Right. And, you know, if we're, can't, this is how I feel about therapy. If you're with a therapist that is uncomfortable with sex, your therapist hasn't done their own work. Right. And so if they're, if they're like putting that in a

bucket somewhere else so they don't want to address it in your space. that would not be to me. It feels like not a great therapist, but ⁓ I think that as somebody working in any kind of intimacy, I feel totally okay in my Cuddlist sessions talking about sex with my clients. We talk about it all the time because I know I'm a sex geek and they can ask me questions and we can talk about anything in the space. So I don't have any issue having this conversation with my Cuddlist t-shirt on. Wonderful. Awesome.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (44:33)

Right.

beautiful. Love it. Love it. And

great. I have enjoyed hanging out and can't wait until we get to do it again.

Michelle Renee (44:56)

I will message you and find out what your conference schedule looks like this year and see if we have any overlap. I doubt it because we're really paring it down this year, but I would love to see you either way.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (45:05)

Yeah,

I'm really taking a step back from conference world. I'm still on the fence if I'm doing the EMDR conference this year, just because I'm reprioritizing a lot of things in my life. So. ⁓

Michelle Renee (45:14)

I'm not.

Same. Yeah.

I'll tell you this. I had a moment at Innovations in Psychotherapy where I want to put my energy not into convincing people how interesting this work is, but rather put my energy on the people that are really excited about it too. They see it and they're instantly interested, curious, want to know more. I'm done trying to sell.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (45:40)

Yes.

Michelle Renee (45:48)

to the top of the food chain about why, you know, like, I want, yeah, I want a big stage, but I'm tired of putting my energy in the wrong, to me, feels like the wrong places, so, yeah.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (46:02)

I'm right there with you with my work.

So again, Miss Finale, yay.

Michelle Renee (46:07)

Great. I hope this is like the beginning. Well, I think the EMDR conference was the beginning of a lovely friendship, but I look forward to next time that we cross paths.

Jamie Marich (she/they) (46:17)

I do too. Thank you, Michelle.

Michelle Renee (46:18)

Thank

you, Jamie.