Angela Rivero
In this episode of the Intimacy Lab, Michelle Renee speaks with Angela Rivero, a somatic practitioner and sex and relationship coach. They explore the concepts of somatic experiencing, the healing process, and the importance of emotional intelligence in relationships. Angela shares insights on trauma, grief, and the significance of reconnecting with oneself. The conversation also touches on boundaries, the power of asking for help, and the journey of self-discovery in navigating intimacy and desire.
Takeaways
Healing is not a destination but a journey of reconnection.
Somatic experiencing helps us understand our body's signals.
Emotions need to be felt and processed, not suppressed.
Grief is a natural part of healing and self-discovery.
Asking for help is a sign of strength, not weakness.
Boundaries are essential for healthy relationships.
Celebrating small wins can foster self-acceptance.
Recognizing glimmers of joy is crucial for emotional health.
Curiosity about our desires can enhance intimacy.
Generosity in relationships requires clear boundaries.
Angela Rivero is a Somatic Experiencing practitioner and sex & relationship coach based in Escondido, CA. She specializes in female intimacy and anatomy education, guiding clients to understand body signals, complete stress cycles, and build capacity for safety, pleasure, and connection. Angela supports complex trauma healing, boundaries, and changing desire through practical, compassionate tools. She works with clients online and in person, hosts the Everyday Intimacy with Angela Rivera podcast, and her website is https://somashift.org.
Michelle Renee (she/her) is a therapeutic intimacy specialist, trained as both a Cuddle Therapist and Surrogate Partner, and the co-owner & Director of Training at Cuddlist.com. She practices a trauma-informed, consent-based approach that helps folks of all genders rebuild trust with touch, set clear boundaries, and access authentic pleasure ... at their own pace. She serves clients nationwide and partners with therapists to integrate somatic, consent-based healing. Michelle's websites are https://meetmichellerenee.com and https://humanconnectioncoach.com and she can be found on social media at https://instagram.com/meetmichellerenee.
If you’d like to ask a question for Michelle to answer on an episode, https://www.meetmichellerenee.com/podcast
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Rough Transcript:
Michelle Renee (she/her) (00:21)
Welcome back to the Intimacy Lab. I'm Michelle Renne and today I get to be joined by another local. This season I'm trying to like work on bringing in more Southern California people. So today we have Angela Rivero who is just north of me, like my north neighbor by like just a couple exits. So Angela, why don't you introduce yourself?
Angela Rivero (00:30)
I mean, it's something. ⁓
Yeah, thank you for having me on. Yeah, I'm Angela Rivero. ⁓ I live in Escondido and so my office is also in Escondido. So we're definitely close to each other, which is really cool. And ⁓ I'm a somatic practitioner. So I do things based in the body, not just how we talk about things, but actually understanding our signals of the body. And I also am a sex, and relationship coach. So I love to specialize in female intimacy, like female anatomy, because most of us don't have that education growing up. And so
I just like to reconnect people to what they haven't found out throughout their life. You know what I mean? And that really just puts pieces together. I've also been married for a long time to my husband, Jesse, and we have two boys, one 13 and one will be 11 on Sunday.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:22)
Well, it's good to reconnect with you. We got lunch, was it last year? Early maybe last year? It feels like it was a while ago.
Angela Rivero (01:30)
I mean, probably at least six months ago. don't know exactly.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:31)
It was definitely six months flies by so fast. It was
definitely, definitely longer than that. Well, it's one of those things I'm like, how did we meet? And we were kind of trying to piece it together. We think that I posted something about my happy hour or something like that in a local San Diego group. And we got connected and grabbed lunch and really appreciate your work. And it's
it's good to have you here just so that the community, because I like to think that this is kind of Michelle's personal little bubble podcast where I just talk to people I like. My listeners probably are people that I know. Maybe it goes out farther than that, but I think of it as maybe a ripple, like a pebble. I dropped the pebble and who knows where it goes, but I'm mainly here because I just enjoy like talking to my friends and giving people a little peek inside those conversations. So
Angela Rivero (02:09)
Thank
Michelle Renee (she/her) (02:27)
Would you, you do somatic experiencing, correct? Can you tell us a little bit of how would you describe it? Because people ask me and they think because I do somatic work that they conflate things and I'm like, nope, I'm not somatic experiencing and I've not been trained in it and I haven't even taken like an intro class or anything to be able to really say that I know what I do. What do you do in that space?
Angela Rivero (02:27)
you
I do, yeah.
Uh-huh.
Yeah, I mean, the creator, Peter Levine, he started studying animals, I believe. And he saw why don't animals in the wild get traumatized? Like they get chased by animals and things like that happen to them. And then they have these certain patterns that they do and then they get back up, you know, obviously if they aren't fully attacked and killed, but like, and so he just was really curious about it. Like why do humans, cause we can override our signals and over ourselves and animals don't really do that. They follow a natural pattern. So an animal might freeze and then all of a sudden once they're not in threat,
they'll come out of freeze and they'll go back to their lives. And so ⁓ you'll have to see an animal shake after something really traumatic has happened. And we humans shake as well, but a lot of times we can also suppress it. And also sometimes even the medical field, they'll give you medicine to suppress the shaking. So you're in like a car accident or something. And so you're stopping the natural ⁓ completion of something that was really stressful that happened too fast, too quickly. ⁓
And so a lot of people think, you know, trauma has like these only these big events that happen like assaults and all that. And ⁓ it can be so much more than that, like complex trauma, like where we didn't really have our needs met growing up, even though we had nice parents and all that stuff. And so it's called complex because it's not like you really even know like something was off, but you grew up in a way that felt like, I don't know, a little bit weird. Like you didn't get all your needs met. So what he did is he created a modality that follows the patterns in the system, ⁓ whether it's like
Like said, that completion of something that was really stressful, for example. And so it's like a body-based modality, meaning we're going to learn the signals of the body, what it's telling you, and also complete patterns that were stuck in the system because, overwhelmed. And so everybody doesn't get traumatized just because they've had a stressful situation, but it's really also how much we're alone and not supported after something big happens. That's usually when they're lingering a pattern in your nervous system that isn't completed. And so
He talks about like, it's really coming back to the essence of who we are because most of us can deal with the triggers and the traumas. We're used to it. It's not comfortable, but we're used to it. But not everybody has the capacity to feel joy, pleasure or good things. And so it's just exploring different patterns in the nervous system that more likely has been stuck. And that could be even like someone who saw something really terrible and they had like the startled fright that happens and they kind of walk around like maybe for years like that, cause it never got completed. And so it's like,
Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:54)
Mm-hmm.
Angela Rivero (05:10)
helping piece back together, kind of a fragmentation that happens in the system. So it's really just putting pieces back together and also giving yourself a lot of resources and understanding that you didn't have before. So I don't know if that explains it, but that's least part of it.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (05:22)
That's so, I just asked another friend to help me understand it. you said almost not clearly word for word, but my system is going, yep, yep, that's how you understood it before. Okay, I think I have it. So I'm so glad that you were able to explain that. And hopefully that'll help me when I'm making referrals and suggestions. Maybe you should try, I say that, I say it often. Maybe you should try somatic experiencing. And it never...
I always feel a little weird when the follow-up question is, can you explain it to me? And I'm like, I don't really know. I just know that it's well-respected. It's got great people. The people that I know that are trained in somatic experiencing are top quality practitioners. And so it's just an easy, it's not the work I do. I'm much more on the relational, like deep relational. I know your work is relational also, at least that's what it's been pointed out to me.
Angela Rivero (06:09)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (06:19)
I'm it's very different. I'm showing up in a very different relational way. I thank you. Thank you. All right. So I was thinking that for our group of cards today that we would play the healing edition, which is a little micro edition that I carry with me often because when I'm at conference, sometimes we want something to do. And so I'll pull this out and we'll talk about what comes up for us. So let's see where we start. I'm not
pre-sorting these. the first question is, what do you understand now about the healing process that you didn't before?
Angela Rivero (06:56)
Yeah, I was just talking to you about this before we started recording. think that what's become really clear over the last few years is that it's really not even about healing, or at least not this giant pursuit that people are in this pattern of like trying to heal so hard and work so hard to heal and they do all the things and they still feel stuck. So for me, it's really about a reconnection to self and to the things that we didn't have and building resources, which I think then
Healing is a natural side effect of that reconnection. ⁓ But what I see a lot with my clients is that, like I said, working so hard and doing all the right things, all the books, all the things, right? And it's like, go big or go home and like fight really hard. And so that's kind of just continuing maybe the survival energy, the stress in the system. And that almost like then healing feels like a threat or like it's too much and it's overloading your system. And then you feel hopeless or broken because you're like, I've tried everything.
So for me, it's not really about healing. I think it's just really about connection with ourselves and honoring the pace of our actual nervous system, not what we think we should be doing or how we want to be. ⁓ Because we all have those internal resources. We just haven't truly been taught them intellectually and then definitely not in the system of our own bodies where we're like, I can think that I'm feeling safe, but if I don't actually feel it, then it doesn't matter how many books or anything else you've read.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (08:02)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Angela Rivero (08:18)
And that's why it's different somatic experiencing, cause it's not just about like, ⁓ I understand it. No, you got to understand it in your actual body. Right.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (08:25)
Right, that you can't intellectualize your way. I think for me the answer is like that the healing is there is no endpoint, like, ⁓ I passed the test, I got the A or I checked the box and now I shouldn't have any of these things come up for me anymore. Right? It's like, it's more like being able to recognize what's happening and why it's happening and being able to make
maybe a different choice around how you're responding to it. Like just with the knowledge that like for myself, I'll be like, this is, this is reminding me of something from my past. And that's why I'm having this reaction. It's not really about what's happening in front of me. Right. And just that awareness slows everything down to where it's not ⁓ so a panic space. It's like, ⁓ this is that thing.
Angela Rivero (09:05)
Mm-hmm.
Exactly. I think it's like building a flexible nervous system that has resources and tools that it's never had before. And so like you said, like we're meant to have activation in our nervous system to want to fight or flee if we actually need to, but sometimes we get stuck in those states because of things that have happened, but we're never going to have triggers or things come up in the rest of our lives. But if you feel a resource and you have tools to be able to have that and pause.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (09:18)
too.
Angela Rivero (09:41)
and support your system instead of being completely overwhelmed. You might be like stressed as opposed to that extreme, you know, so it's really building that more than anything else.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (09:49)
You know, I was, I love to talk to my husband in the car. Like we do road trips, like I'm like, this is our time to talk about deep stuff and whatnot. And ⁓ we were talking about trauma and how there was a study that was a certain type of journaling could help you basically reprocess the trauma. it showed ⁓ a effect on your nervous, not nervous, on your immune system.
Angela Rivero (09:57)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (10:14)
that you could, which totally makes sense to me. It's not magic. You know, it's just like, okay, so you're going to process the story. You basically write for up to 30 minutes about the same event four times, either four times, like four days in a row or once a week for four weeks. And they've they've shown ⁓ improvement in your immune system. So I'm like, hey, Paul, you know, they suggest like
list like three traumatic experiences from your past and maybe don't start with the most traumatic start trying this with like number two or number three right I said what's on your list and he just goes I don't I don't really have anything and I was like in my head I was so judgmental about what are you like a psychopath how do you not have anything that comes up for you right and then um
Angela Rivero (11:00)
Yeah. ⁓
Michelle Renee (she/her) (11:04)
my colleague Brian Gibney was saying as I was like telling him the story on the rest of my car ride, ⁓ he just goes, Michelle, you ever thought that maybe he doesn't process trauma the way that you do? And I was like, ⁓ and then I remember watching a video with Gabor Mate talking about like which ⁓ people in the armed forces, like which ones will have CP or will have PTSD and which ones won't.
a lot of times it has to do with what their childhood was like. And I'm like, ⁓ yeah, he doesn't have an ACEs score, an adverse childhood experiences score. What is that like? And so when you, I think of myself in relationship in that natural sense to compare ourselves and be like, how come this is so hard on me? And I'm like, I had a very different childhood.
Angela Rivero (11:41)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, it really makes a difference. I think that comes back to that complex trauma too. You know, we're, don't know what we don't know and we operate a certain way and that's how we relate to other people. And even if we want to feel better, if we're on that old operating system, cause you know, people update their phones all the time, right? But then we never think about maybe updating like how we're operating our own nervous system and all that stuff. like,
Michelle Renee (she/her) (11:58)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yep.
I'm on Michelle 5.4, something like that.
Like I've made this joke for so many years, Angela. started a, back in like 10 years ago, I started a blog called Sex After Marriage. It was right after my first marriage ended. And it was kind of a public diary of like exploring kink and BDSM and then polyamory. And I kept it going pretty consistently for a couple of years.
Angela Rivero (12:27)
Yep.
coming.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (12:46)
So I would regularly say, there was another operating system upgrade, right? Like, I refer to like the first, you know, almost 40 years was like Michelle 1.0. And then I would say like the changes came so rapidly after that divorce that I was constantly like, if you thought you knew me last week, I'm a whole different person.
Angela Rivero (12:51)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Mm. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:09)
Like as
soon as I found Betty Dodson and started doing, you know, all the work on my own sexuality and pleasure and body image and like everything moved at such a rapid pace, I couldn't even keep up with myself. And so yeah, I don't even know what number of system I'm on now, but it's not 1.0 anymore. I do know that, that is for sure.
Angela Rivero (13:24)
Hmm, interesting,
For sure. And I think that that's what I like about this work so much too, is that people come in and like I said, they've tried so many things and they still kind of feel like a bit hopeless or stuck, but it's like, you really do update your system if you start to learn things that you've never learned before. And then you start to feel the actual shifts, not just think if you feel the shifts. And I think that's why a lot of hope is restored doing type of somatic modalities for that particular reason, you know? So I think that's why it's such a wonderful modality, all the ones that we're doing.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:43)
Mm-hmm.
We don't learn any of these things in school, right? Like whether we're worried about us learning, like who was the 36th president or, you know, things that you're never going to use or like, you know, we're never going to have a computer in our pocket. You have to memorize these things, at least, you know, when I was in school. And now that's not the case. And wouldn't it be interesting if we did more, you know, emotional education, relationship education, these things that like, I don't, I wonder if they're teaching about.
Angela Rivero (14:02)
We do.
you
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (14:29)
Polyvagal theory and the nervous system and these things. Wouldn't that be interesting? Like I think about as I grew up in the in West Michigan and back there it was very common to like get out of high school and get married and start having kids pretty quickly. I did not know how to regulate myself.
at that time. And in the difference between like my first child and my second child, which were eight years apart, and I was vastly more mature for the second one. Those would be really interesting things to know coming out of high school about, you know, our ability to have regulated children really depend on our own ability to regulate. I didn't consider that I was training my child's nervous system.
Angela Rivero (15:09)
It is, yeah.
I why would we? We'd never hear about something like that. But I definitely truly believe if we started learning this stuff, even like kindergarten ways to just like reconnect and do somatic practices and things, I mean, we would change generations.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (15:27)
The good news is
I do think there's a shift just from my limited perspective. I know some early childhood educators that definitely are bringing more emotional intelligence work into the classroom and helping, even just naming your feelings, right? And learning what to do with those feelings, because they're all good. They all give us great information, just utilizing them responsibly.
Angela Rivero (15:50)
Right.
Yeah, and I've really noticed that people don't always have the permission or the ability to sit with their emotions. There's a lot of discomfort and fear that comes up. And with me, it's not the idea of trying to push them away. like, how do you sit with them with the right resources and support so they aren't feeling like a survival thing or like an overwhelming experience? so, yeah, it's more than just like.
being able to name it, but it's like, there's a deep, that deepness that happens when you're able to sit with like anger, when you were never allowed to be angry or nobody modeled anything for you. And so as much as it's, you somatic, as far as you like, learn to listen to the signals to your body, it's also like, how can we in a really good pace, feel things that we don't want to feel so that you know, that it's safe to feel them so they don't run your life unconsciously anymore. So
Michelle Renee (she/her) (16:39)
or feel them faster. Like I was reading a book over COVID, I can't remember the name of it, but it was talking about, you know, we wait till a feeling is at like 80%, right? And if we could catch that feeling at a much lower level, we could do something with that information rather than waiting until we, you know, flip our lid, pop our top as they say.
Angela Rivero (16:51)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, and that comes with like a two-ment and practice right to realize, ⁓ this actually is anger or actually underneath this is actually sat real deep sadness or grief and all that kind of stuff. so naming it is definitely a really big part of it. And then how can a signals in your body, whether it's like complete tightness in your chest or something else. And ⁓ it makes a huge difference in how you can tolerate it. And then it's not terrifying anymore. Not at least not a lot anymore. It's like a big thing that shifts for people. And so. ⁓
Michelle Renee (she/her) (17:06)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Angela Rivero (17:32)
Yeah, emotions are a big deal for our work, isn't it?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (17:34)
Yeah, I remember watching a video years ago with somebody in my world talking about the power of tears. And I remember I was at a point in my life that I still had a lot of shame about my about crying and I was in a grieving process where I was crying a lot and I kept apologizing for it and I had a lot of feelings of being too much and whatnot. And I remember listening to him talk about how it's not the people that cry that he worries about, it's the people that don't.
Angela Rivero (17:42)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:02)
And
I was like, there was just something in that phrase that kind of flipped for me is like, you mean, I'm lucky that I'm able to release all of this. How great and then you know, I love the book, Complex PTSD from surviving to thriving from Pete Walker. I don't know if you've if you've read that. But there is a very large section on like the power of tears. And it's just another place to get permission to like, clean it all out.
Angela Rivero (18:10)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:29)
Orgasms for the eyes, whatever it is. Yeah.
Angela Rivero (18:31)
I love that. ⁓
It's true. Like I said, even that thing that I was talking about, like how animals shake afterwards, like I think even knowing that like it could be a way your nervous system is trying to reset after really something stressful. That could be like empowering to know that it's a natural response in the body and it's doing something to help you reset as opposed to be like, you're just so scared and blah, blah, blah. And like you kind of feel bad about like, why am I so shaky after this? No, your body's trying to reset and it's doing you a
Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:38)
Mm-hmm.
Angela Rivero (19:00)
doing you a solid by letting your body actually do it. And usually when we can just allow it, it's usually just a matter of a moments or a few minutes that things start to come back online and all that stuff. like I said, the more we understand how our systems work, the more we can have grace and empathy for ourselves and not feel so hard on ourselves.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (19:17)
I remember having a client years ago that taught, he was the first client that really came in with a ⁓ desire to work on trauma. And not necessarily with me, but he had ⁓ a trauma background. He was seeing a trauma therapist. He was coming in for, he just wanted to eye gaze. was something that him and his therapist were practicing after EMDR sessions and he wanted more practice space. But what ended up happening in our space was that he did have some trauma release.
And I asked him, he was a little shaky, and I said, is that anxiety? And he goes, Michelle, remember in Peter Levine's Waking the Tiger? And I'm like, ⁓ and I had read it, but I'd never experienced it in person to put it together. And then fast forward, occasionally I'll have a client that experiences that in session with me. And just to be able to just let them know it's natural, it's not going to last forever, but it's actually really good for you.
Angela Rivero (19:53)
Yeah, exactly.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (20:14)
Let it run its course.
Angela Rivero (20:15)
Yeah, there's a deactivation that's happening in the system potentially, or like all of sudden they have space because they felt seen or understood and something starts to shift in the bar that's maybe been stuck in that loop or pattern for so long. so people sometimes burp or yawn or things happened after because you know, the digestion is the last thing that's online when you're in a survival state, because it's not necessary to digest when you need to fight or flee or whatever. And so things will all of a sudden kind of soften, you'll have more breath and then it might be like a twitch or something that happens and
Michelle Renee (she/her) (20:17)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Angela Rivero (20:44)
Yeah, they're just ways that your nervous system is like, ⁓ I felt this now and I can start to like reorganize my system, you know.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (20:48)
And yeah,
and sometimes it's a trembling, right? And I, the polar bear video that's, you know, on YouTube of watching the polar bear shake, ⁓ it's just, it's a little disturbing to watch, but it did help me understand the process a little bit better. Cool. Ready for another question? All right. What title would you give this chapter of your healing journey?
Angela Rivero (20:51)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's good stuff. Sure.
Mmm, nice question.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (21:16)
I have to think about that.
Angela Rivero (21:18)
Hmm.
Gosh, I'm trying to think of the right word. Like I have a feeling to some degree. I'm just trying to feel about what's the right word with that. ⁓
I don't know, I guess the word settled, settled or settling comes in. I just feel like I'm really connected to my work and understanding so much about why this all matters and how it matters. And that just feels very aligned and settling in my own system. and a really lovely way. And I think that, you know, for my child and other things, I a lot of unsettling in my system for many, many years.
unconsciously had no clue that I felt that way. And so for the last several years, I've just really noticed I've really settled in and feeling like a more balanced calmness in my system. And that feels really beautiful to be able to share with my clients and my people, my connections and things. Yeah. So just settled and aligned.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:10)
Yeah, the word that first came up for me was grief. And it's like, I don't know what the title would be. It's something about...
Angela Rivero (22:18)
Thank
Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:21)
the old way that Michelle 1.0 wasn't who I really was, right? It was, it's interesting to get to know myself from a different place because I'm not, ⁓
Angela Rivero (22:22)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:34)
unknowingly making adjustments to make my space safer or like how I show up in the world. A term, a phrase that I've recently learned was like compulsory sexuality, right? How much sex did I have because it was expected or that's my role or what have you. And so, so in that there's a lot of grief about what has changed because some things are easier now, but some things are different.
Angela Rivero (22:45)
Hmm.
Right.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (23:02)
and maybe might feel harder in some ways, right? Like there's just, there's a lot of change that happens and in change, think grief just has to come along with it. I don't want to stay there, but I want to give myself the opportunity to just like, let those feelings out once in a while. did a session Sunday for myself of just getting to really tap in to the grief of like, things aren't as easy, sex isn't as easy anymore.
Angela Rivero (23:29)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (23:29)
and I don't know how much of it is my age and perimenopause and medications and also like you know the reasons we have sex change over the years and you know there's just so much in the history that I just go there's a lot of grief here and I say it with a smile like I'm also excited to see what's on their side of it but it is definitely ⁓ an interesting
Angela Rivero (23:47)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (23:54)
An interesting change. When I was younger, I want to out myself. When I was younger and I'd hear about women being like kind of over sex and I had, know, Betty Dotson in my life at that time and she was such a such a not over sex person, like definitely not over sex. And I thought, yeah, you just got to you just got to
Angela Rivero (23:57)
Mm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (24:20)
Keep it in the forefront of your mind and if it's important to you, that won't change. And now I'm in the reality of it of like, ⁓ it's really difficult to keep it in the forefront and to prioritize it and decide what value it has in my life. So now I want to apologize to any woman that I had judgment for back in the day, it's, the change is real. The change is real. Yeah.
Angela Rivero (24:21)
Thank ⁓
and
Yeah,
thank you for sharing about your grief. think that's definitely one of the elements that we all experience when we do trauma work or any work really is that there's faces of grief and you also name like, you gotta let it be with it, sit with it and then eventually, know, something else will shift out of that. But like, it's an important part to allow ourselves to grieve, you know.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (24:59)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, like, again, I said, I don't want to sit in it too long. I remember doing a thing with a friend a couple summers ago, we wrote something that we wanted to let go of, and threw it in the fire. Right? And at that, it was another phase of grief of like, letting go of something that had changed. And I didn't want to sit and think about, I wonder if I can go back to that or get that back. It's like if
Angela Rivero (25:10)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
⁓ huh.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (25:31)
If we're living in that
space, then we're not in the presence, right? And I already struggle with living in the future so much. I definitely don't want to struggle with living in the past.
Angela Rivero (25:41)
Yeah. Yeah, I think we're definitely also beings that are in cycles, right? And so, you know, especially with sexuality and anything really, especially women, we have these different cycles or people who identify it with female body, whatever. It's like we have cycles that we go through, you know, and sometimes sex is something that we're really into and sometimes it's not, you know, and unless we judge ourselves and also be curious, you know, and how we view sexuality is also really important because
know, if it's for someone else all the time, then it be really depleting. And a lot of us have that growing up where we're supposed to provide and give, and it doesn't really matter what we what we feel or what we want. And so that's why we're always kind of feeling unmet. So so it's important to have that curiosity, too. But if once you have it, I think there's also times to let ourselves not be curious as much.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (26:13)
you
Yeah, think we, I will speak for myself back in the day when I was doing a lot of sex out of obligation, was like, it's for the betterment of the relationship or what have you. But ultimately, in the long run, it really takes a toll. It takes a toll on your own libido and like, it seeps into things. So I'm always a big proponent now of like,
Angela Rivero (26:40)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (26:54)
These are worthy conversations and worthy space to experiment. My partner and did a one month experiment where all sex was off the table unless I asked for something. And ⁓ it had to be a real desire for it. I couldn't should myself. And it didn't even have to be sex that I asked for. It could be I wanted pizza for dinner.
Angela Rivero (27:08)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (27:20)
or I wanted him to watch a movie with me and in what on the other side of this and this was his idea. I want to give all the props in the world to my husband. In the end there was twice that month that I asked for sex and there were lots and lots and lots of evenings me going to bed thinking I should be asking for sex and me telling myself that is not what this experiment is.
Angela Rivero (27:45)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (27:46)
Right? Is this a, to really figure out what, where is your desire sitting? And, and it was a, it was a really good, it was a really good thing to just go through and know that a, my husband was totally on board with it because it was his idea. And just like noticing how much the internal pressure shows up even without the external pressure.
Angela Rivero (28:01)
It's lovely.
No.
Yeah, it's pretty huge. But I also think you've pointed out something really important. It's like the, I don't know, the ritual of practicing, asking for what we want, not just in the bedroom, but so many other ways. And I find that it's not easy to know your desire, especially if you've been in like kind of survival energy and feeling kind of overwhelmed and exhausted. So starting to be like, Oh, I'm going to have the perfect sex life can feel really like out of reach or not impossible. And so was definitely one of the things that I help people do is connect to their desires.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:25)
Mm-hmm.
Angela Rivero (28:37)
And that just be the smallest thing ever where it's like, maybe I just want a piece of dark chocolate today and I can ask for it or cause it's hard to ask what we want if we're used to not asking or even knowing what we want. So it can be a huge reclamation just to be able to like where, how else can I approach this? That it's in so direct, like this huge topic. I'm not even not fully ready to, but I can like start to truly understand what I want a little bit more and more and ask for what I want. And that alone can also shift things for our intimacy for sure.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:55)
Yeah.
Yeah, you don't
jump into the deep end and be like, suddenly you're going to craft your ideal sexual experience or anything like that. We joke on my side of the of the training world is like, do you even know what you need right now? Are you willing to give yourself a bathroom break if you think you have to pee? Like, there are so many of us that ignore even that. So we have to start really at the very basics and then work our way up.
Angela Rivero (29:18)
⁓
I know.
Well, yeah, because even like I was mentioning Peter Levine's work, it's like ⁓ we override our signals like I said, even if we have to pee really bad, we can override it. Or if we're really hungry, we can push it back like hours and hours and not take care of ourselves. And so not everybody has the connection to feeling their sensations and their body, but people usually can be like, ⁓ I do feel my bladder is a little bit full. You know what I mean? So that's one way even to access like, ⁓ well, that's what body signals are is, I'm really paying attention. am.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (29:47)
Mm-hmm.
Angela Rivero (29:57)
feeling maybe a slight hunger in my belly. And so sometimes we don't even feel it because we're so disconnected from it, but like that's the way to also practice. Like I don't need to override this time or maybe I overwrite it, but I'm to do a little bit slower and like honor a little bit more pace, you know, than before. So.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (30:02)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, or...
or just knowing that about yourself that it's harder
to tap into that. Another husband's story. He's going through a new to him ⁓ issue with migraines. And he does have a hard time noticing what's happening in his body. And so he literally the other day said, just a minute, I think I'm having a migraine. Let me go check. And he went and he laid down in the bedroom with the lights off and just did some inventory of his body.
Angela Rivero (30:20)
you
Hmm.
Yeah. ⁓
Michelle Renee (she/her) (30:39)
right? And he
came back out after just a couple moments and he said, yep, I'm having a migraine. But he knew, he knows for himself now that he's not picking up on those cues. And so he has to go do what it takes for him to check in with himself and see. like, I'm like, yes, you're figuring out what you need. Like, that's really great.
Angela Rivero (30:46)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
It's really great. Yeah. And that's like a perfect example of like, you don't have to have like every answer, every signal in your body, but start to notice that things like, oh, I do have tend to feel sick this way or whatever it is. And then at least you can slowly catch it or like support your system in a way that I hadn't before. So I think sometimes people want to have everything figured out and that's just not realistic and they want to be healed and all these things. like,
Michelle Renee (she/her) (31:05)
Mm-mm.
Mm-hmm.
Angela Rivero (31:22)
the more we could disconnect and learn resources and tools. Like I said, it can be really life-changing and how we can support it. And it's like repairing relationship with ourselves, because maybe we didn't have a lot of repair growing up. And all of a sudden, they'd be like, I can choose something different this time. Like, whoa. It might be the smallest thing ever, but it leads to a lot of that self-agency when we're like, I'm noticing something different here. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (31:43)
I'm noticing that I'm making my own needs invisible. Why am I hesitant to ask for that? What is that about? And just slowing everything down and getting curious about ourselves. All right, do you have another one in you, do you think? Okay. When was the last time you didn't ask for help but really needed it?
Angela Rivero (31:56)
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
you
Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:04)
I have to think about that too.
Angela Rivero (32:06)
Yeah.
I mean, I can always notice that as a pattern that me wants to do things on my own, totally like a sufficient child thing growing up. And I am very efficient and organized and so I can make shit happen. ⁓ and then I can still notice that it's okay to get help and all that stuff. ⁓ I mean, I had surgery, like I said, a couple of weeks ago and it still felt a little bit hard for me to ask one of my friends who lives actually near my house and then my kids go to the same school. I felt hard for me to ask her, you please bring the boys home?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:35)
Mmm.
Angela Rivero (32:35)
⁓
And she totally could do it and I actually did ask because I didn't not ask but I just wanted to say that still like it still felt this moment of like it feels like a big ask to do this but I still did it but yeah those patterns come up where I'm like how could I make this happen without help?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:52)
But I also like, I imagine you
have to high five yourself when you notice that you did take care of yourself by asking. And yeah, I think with Paul having all these migraine things, I had a few friends that were like, how is your self care and make sure you're asking for help. And I had this one where I was like, I'm actually doing really well. I've got the dog sitter.
Angela Rivero (32:57)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (33:17)
taking my dog off my hands even when I don't have client work, which is kind of feels like a luxury to say, you know, I joke it's like having a toddler and I'm like, grandma Sue take the, take the toddler needs to go. And so like, I don't, I feel like I've gotten so much better at this, but I also have an ego and once in a while I'm like, no, I've got it. I can do everything I got. I can carry these 12 bags of groceries into the house by myself. I don't need any help. Yeah.
Angela Rivero (33:22)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, but like I said, it's like those moments where we can notice there's the resistance, the old resistance that's to come up. And then even feeling those things, but you have the awareness and you can still ask even if it's uncomfortable, as opposed to not asking at all, or you know what I mean? Or if we didn't ask, have the grace to be like, Oh, I saw I could have used the help there. And I saw that little guy coming back up and not letting me really ask because there was fear or something happening, fear of abandonment or rejection or whatever it is. And so like,
It's always a process.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (34:12)
What a
good gift to give to yourself though, the gift of the ask. Like that's really good. All right, I feel like we have to get one spicy question in before the end. feel like you work in sexuality. We need a spicy question. Let me pull out the triple X box. Now I want to say this. I didn't say it on the last one, but it's...
Angela Rivero (34:16)
Yeah, that's good.
Let's do it.
you
Michelle Renee (she/her) (34:38)
would still stand. You can always say no to one of these questions. try to, I will filter these out when I look at it and be like, no, I don't want to talk about that on this on this space.
Angela Rivero (34:45)
Sounds good.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (34:50)
Okay.
this is interesting. Is it a red flag if a sexual partner is still in touch with an ex? Why or why not?
Angela Rivero (34:59)
I mean, it's a little hard to answer because I'm in a monogamous relationship for a long time. I would say when I was younger, that probably would have been like a trigger of insecurity for me. I don't know. I think that can also just be an excitement and a turn on with the fact that we're human and have sexuality. It isn't just like only one little thing that we're supposed to have, you know what I mean? So yeah, I think it just depends what your own boundaries are with your own relationship with your partner and what kind of level of trust there is.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:20)
Yeah.
Angela Rivero (35:27)
and then it could be playful and fun and okay. But I think it just depends on the person.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:27)
Yeah.
Yeah,
I don't think I could paint it as like a sweeping red flag, right? There's too many nuances. yeah, if you're non-monogamous, that's really common to be in contact with previous sexual partners or maybe their current sexual partners or who knows what. But also, like, you know, I have a pretty, well, I think it's had better times. I have a pretty good relationship with my ex-husband.
Angela Rivero (35:34)
Yeah. Yeah.
Exactly.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:57)
Right, that's not, I think that's a green flag if I was in the dating world, right? So it's really interesting. It's a flag like every other flag, depends on the context.
Angela Rivero (36:00)
Right.
Great. Yep. ⁓
So what do I hate to ask for but love to receive? That's the question, right?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (36:14)
Mm-hmm.
Angela Rivero (36:15)
I guess, I guess it is that thing where like feeling like people just want to spend time and energy on me. I don't want to ask for it, but it feels really lovely when like people show up and show you like, really, really remind you that they care about you. Cause that happened even before my surgery, I got like a little care package and got phone calls and texts and this really sweet things from my partner, but also friendships and all that stuff. So, uh, it's not that I would necessarily go out and ask for it, which I could.
But it felt really lovely to get kind of spoiled or cared for or thought about.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (36:49)
Yeah, I would say I hate asking for gifts. But I love to receive them. Like I don't, I don't. It's, I used to do like the five love language stuff with a lot of my clients years ago. don't bring it up anymore so much. But I people had a lot of like, internal judgment about being a gifts, like a ⁓ receiving gifts person. ⁓
Angela Rivero (36:52)
Hmm.
All right.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (37:15)
I feel like I'm like all the love languages and I would say there's way more than five, but like I joke that I speak them all fluently and I need to receive them all like not consistently, but I get so excited for a gift. Yet I am a terror. I'm terrible about giving gifts. So I don't like to ask for a gift, but man, do I love a gift, especially if it's like thoughtful.
Angela Rivero (37:20)
Thank
Hmm.
Hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (37:39)
Which means it's
probably not because it's a birthday or Christmas. It's just like a random, a random gift. That would be the thing.
Angela Rivero (37:48)
Yeah, I went to like a crystal store with a group of friends and big bear a few, a couple of months ago. And I saw these cute little bells that you can like dig at the end of a meditation or something. I'm like, I'm not going to buy them here. I'll buy them somewhere else when I closer to home. And then my, my friends right before my surgery has sent me a little package, including those little bells. And so like, that's why I felt so touching because it's like, she remembered made an effort to buy them and send them to me. Like, it felt like a pretty big deal. And so having those kinds of friendships and that kind of receiving feels really special.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:05)
Ugh.
Yeah. ⁓ I remember ⁓ my ex-mother-in-law cleaned my oven without asking, like without me asking. We were moving into a new place and she was staying and watching the kids while we were moving stuff. And one time when we came back with a load of stuff, she was cleaning my oven and I just started crying because it's like one of the least favorite things I ever want to do.
Angela Rivero (38:37)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:42)
and she just did it without asking. And back then I was not used to such thoughtfulness and it hit me like a Mack truck and I was just like, sheet of tears. So much gratitude.
Angela Rivero (38:48)
All
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:55)
All right, I'm going to throw one more in the mix here. It's we're up to the triple X. They go up and like thing even though we haven't played them super, too spicy. ⁓ That was the one I did last time.
Angela Rivero (39:01)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:10)
I'll pass on that one. ⁓
I think this is meant to be played in groups. So some of these like don't make sense. ⁓
Angela Rivero (39:16)
So,
Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:20)
So.
This is just not helpful.
Angela Rivero (39:21)
you
Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:22)
Ugh.
What's one subtle thing you do when you really like someone? This also doesn't have to be sexual.
Angela Rivero (39:28)
you
Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:28)
Like just even if you meet like a new friend.
Angela Rivero (39:31)
subtle. Hmm. I'm like, am I a subtle person? I mean, I'm thinking I'm pretty straightforward person. But I mean, I'll ask questions about them. I actually have genuine curiosity about them. And I don't know if that's not subtle, but I just, don't really consider myself a super subtle person. I like to be
Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:32)
you
Okay, we can
take the word subtle out of it. What is something that you do when you really like someone?
Angela Rivero (39:53)
Okay.
Yeah, ask them questions. Actually, genuinely get to know what they're happy about or passionate about or like what's their thing instead of just being like, what's your job? Like I get genuine curiosity about them. And I also will tell them I really appreciate meeting them and that, you know, about the connection and all that stuff and what it means to me kind of thing. So I'm pretty like straightforward with that. ⁓ With telling people things that I actually mean and being genuine about it.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (40:16)
Yeah.
like forthcoming. There's no secret.
Angela Rivero (40:21)
Yeah, so people don't have to guess.
think people want to be met and seen and understood and we don't always have that in our lives and so I just make it a point to show genuine interest if there's genuine interest and with kindness and with care.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (40:34)
Yeah, I hear some appreciation in there too, like verbally appreciating people. Like, yeah. I didn't know there was a name for this, but I tend to like to give little gifts, even though I just said I'm not much of a great gift giver. I think maybe what I mean by that is like big gifts. I...
Angela Rivero (40:39)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (40:56)
Like when I, I've been, I've moved across the country a couple of times and with clients, I'll give them like a little trinket or something. And evidently that's kind of like a form of pebbling. Like penguins will give each other rocks and it's supposedly like a neurodivergent trait. And so I have this thing about, I keep these little like quartz hearts in a little baggie with me. And sometimes I'll leave them with people just as like, want you to put this in your pocket. Like.
Angela Rivero (41:09)
That's cute.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (41:23)
So that's a little thing that I think that I do that I don't know if it's subtle or not.
Angela Rivero (41:29)
Yeah, well, kind of, but it's precious and simple and that extra thought of connection because like, a lot of times we orient to like triggers and things because it keeps us safe. But like, I also teach people how to like recognize the glimmers, which is like the opposite of triggers. Have you heard of the WNS thing? It's because like I said, we know how to feel the pain and all that stuff to it in a lot of ways, right? But like, it's reteaching a nervous system to also feel connection and kindness. So it's like, oh, someone opens the door like
Michelle Renee (she/her) (41:43)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Angela Rivero (41:56)
Wow, that felt kind of warm or I feel my face is smiling lightly. So it just, it's just reconnecting those moments of connection instead of only kind of like honing in on things I feel really hard. And so that's what it feels like. It's like a sweet moment of connection with someone.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (42:08)
And on that note, Deb Dana, love her. I have a cute picture with her from last year where I was in a onesie and we got to share a hug. It was very sweet. Thank you too. She came to our table and I didn't even recognize her at first until I read her badge and then I got super excited and she was so, she's just, she's so, what's the word I'm looking for?
Angela Rivero (42:09)
Yeah, I do too.
I love that so much. That's such a cool person to meet for sure.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (42:37)
She was very generous in her time with us and learning about what we do and being really supportive. And I think when we maneuver, and I say we as in Cuddlist maneuvers and therapy spaces, it feels really good to feel included and not othered. Some people walk around our table with an extra.
like couple feet of distance, like we're gonna come out and give unconsensual hugs or something like that. I'm not really sure what they think that how we're wired, but that's how we were all. So, but Deb was very sweet.
Angela Rivero (43:08)
You
Yeah, I like the word generous because I think sometimes it's not always easy to be generous if we're like stuck in certain cycles. And so there's like this practice of being generous. And I feel like the more regular you are, the easier it is to be generous and much harder to be generous when we're surviving.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (43:30)
Also, boundaries, I think, make being generous so much better. Like sustainable, like heartfelt, like the way that people will feel true, genuine generosity and not... ⁓
Angela Rivero (43:32)
If you don't have any.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (43:47)
the opposite of that, the doing it because you're supposed to or there's pressure or you want to be seen as a good person or yeah, not your authentic, yeah, not authentic. What did you say Angela?
Angela Rivero (43:58)
yeah, that'd be acceptable.
⁓ not being rejected. You don't feel accepted. So you want to provide people essentially, right? And so yeah, boundaries are like essential and people have a hard time with them until I think they understand why they're actually truly important. Like what your underneath needs are. I think it's easier to have kind, but firm boundaries. And it really gives you that space to, you know, be more in true alignment with other people versus just doing it because you don't want to.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (44:09)
Yes. Yeah.
And I
think it's a hard transition for people that come into whatever kind of work they decide to start like navigating through is like, there is a time when it feels like your social circles start have to start to shift because we're changing. And I think that's one of those moments is like the boundaries stuff will will ruffle some feathers in your social circles can very well start to change and then it is
Angela Rivero (44:35)
Yeah.
Yeah.
you
Michelle Renee (she/her) (44:56)
I don't know. There's a big transition, I think, that happens a lot of times when people start to do that kind of work and they're not always ready for it.
Angela Rivero (45:03)
Yeah.
For sure. And I think the more you can feel like, so I do like different boundary work that's, you know, of course related into the body and how the body feels and what it feels like a yes or no. And this whole yarn exercise and seeing like how big is your, like there's all these little things that I do with people. And I think when they can really see like, I've had no boundaries or I have like wide open boundaries. You know, I just, think it's easier to be like, okay, I understand why I have to shift them a little bit. ⁓ and then there's a phase where sometimes you have less social engagement because you're.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (45:14)
Mm-hmm.
Angela Rivero (45:34)
in the process of figuring out what's yours truly versus what's been, you know, vomited on you, maybe your whole life or something, you know, and yeah, it's definitely like, is it grief and things that come up during a process of reconnecting with ourselves. ⁓ I mean, one of the things that I, Peter Levine's work is also like pendulation. Have you heard of pendulation? Yeah, I think that's important for people to know, because it's like we dive deep into the biggest trauma and then
that would just overwhelm or re-traumatize people. So pendulation is just, you go into like a trigger or a sensation that feels like a trigger. And then also finding 1 % in your body or something that feels even 1 % more neutral or better and learning that part and then going between the two states. So you're not overwhelming your system. So that's part of the work as well. And it really makes a ability to really connect to the person instead of being like, okay, we're going to go deep.
really hard and then most people don't operate them. can't do it. They've tried to with certain modalities, but like truly it's like that back between the two states and letting your nervous system catch up and reorganize is really important.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:35)
I mean, that's where some harm can happen if you're working with someone that doesn't have proper training. And I mean, there's some safety built into how our, you know, brains are wired to not kind of let us access things we're not ready for. But you know, once we have some some hint of what's in the next layer of that onion that we're slowly, slowly peeling, I think it's so important to be gentle. There's, there's the race doesn't work.
Angela Rivero (47:03)
doesn't.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (47:03)
the
speed racing through it just it's not that it's not that easy we should that goes back to the beginning of what does it mean to even heal right if you think it's like getting to the end the end point the the touchdown zone or what have you it's just that's it's not the way it goes
Angela Rivero (47:13)
next time.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think that's like a hopeless journey then right where you think you're always trying to meet some goal or end and then if you don't actually meet it because you're always shifting and things become more apparent and all that stuff. But then it just feels like a hopeless journey and stressful journey and like as opposed to be like, can I reconnect and over time things will just evolve on their own by reconnecting and I'm meant to be an end goal for sure.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (47:36)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, what am I doing today that I'm doing differently than I did a year ago? Right? That's the win. That's the give yourself a high five and or a hug or whatever, whatever your celebration is. But like, I think it is like some meme that says something like being able to find the joy and be okay with joy is really kind of the the the goal.
Angela Rivero (48:04)
you
Michelle Renee (she/her) (48:12)
more so than never feeling hard things.
Angela Rivero (48:15)
For sure.
it's like, again, reconnecting to recognize that something is different. Cause it's easy to get in this habit where we're like, you know, trying to heal and all these things, but we don't slow down and recognize like celebrate ourselves and be like, this is, there is a shift here. Then we feel like we're never actually changing. And then that just continues this pattern of like not feeling good enough. And so, ⁓ self celebration and recognition and clarity is like a big part of the work where it's like, yeah, I still have some triggers and things happening.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (48:19)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
you
Angela Rivero (48:42)
And I can see that I'm different in this way or I can celebrate this part of myself and it's pretty big.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (48:43)
Mm-hmm.
I had a moment, I think my current like wins that I've really, really, it's subtle for lack of us, either one of us having subtlety in our vocabulary. ⁓ But like, I'm noticing over the last few years that it used to be that I had to see my reflection in a mirror to realize that I was experiencing joy. I catch myself in the mirror and I go, look at you. That's it.
Angela Rivero (49:09)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (49:15)
happy Michelle right there, right? And I think in more recent times, I'm able to feel the joy and not have to see it reflected back to me in a mirror, which to me is like, yes, like that's my, you know, I won't even call it a baby step. But that's like, that's a big win for me. I really appreciate it. Yeah. It's good.
Angela Rivero (49:36)
I love that.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (49:38)
Well, where can ⁓ where can the folks at home find you Angela if they want to work with you? Do you do any remote work? can't remember.
Angela Rivero (49:47)
Yeah, I definitely do remote work. And then I have an office in Escondido in the central heart of Escondido area. So pretty easy to get to like closer Grand Avenue is a lot of people are more familiar with that than other parts of Escondido. And I mean, my website is Soma Shift. So like the word Soma and then shift.org. And I'm also so much shift with Angela on Instagram. And, you know, my podcast is everyday intimacy, so people can connect with me that way. And
Even Facebook, have a page. They'll find me if they search Angela Rivera.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (50:15)
Yeah, it's so good to reconnect with you and I hope to see you. I'd love to see you at an event or we'll have to get coffee again soon.
Angela Rivero (50:21)
This is near the end the...
I would love that. Thank you for having me on and asking me awesome questions. Thank you.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (50:29)
Yeah, it's good to get intimate with you.
