Nathan Young
In this engaging conversation, Michelle Renee and Nathan Young explore the profound impact of storytelling and narrative leadership on personal and professional growth. They delve into the complexities of self-branding, the importance of vulnerability, and the emotional challenges faced in relationships and entrepreneurship. Through their shared experiences, they highlight the significance of support systems, effective communication, and creating safe spaces for deeper exploration and healing. The discussion also touches on generational patterns and the journey of reprogramming responses to relationships, ultimately emphasizing the power of connection and understanding in navigating life's challenges. In this conversation, Nathan and Michelle explore the complexities of self-compassion, emotional needs in relationships, and the evolution of love. They discuss the importance of consent in emotional exchanges, the challenges of maintaining attraction, and the dynamics of open relationships. The dialogue delves into the impact of past experiences on present relationships and the struggle for emotional vulnerability. They also reflect on the societal expectations surrounding sex and intimacy, emphasizing the need for deeper connections beyond physical encounters.
Nathan Young is the owner and founder of StoryCulture Consulting. For over twelve years, he’s been helping leaders, teams, and organizations harness the power of storytelling to connect, inspire, and lead the narrative.
Nathan can be found on instagram at: https://www.instagram.com/nathancodyyoung/ and his website is https://storycultureconsulting.com/
Michelle Renee (she/her) is a therapeutic intimacy specialist, trained as both a Cuddle Therapist and Surrogate Partner, and the co-owner & Director of Training at Cuddlist.com. She practices a trauma-informed, consent-based approach that helps folks of all genders rebuild trust with touch, set clear boundaries, and access authentic pleasure ... at their own pace. She serves clients nationwide and partners with therapists to integrate somatic, consent-based healing.
Michelle's websites are https://meetmichellerenee.com and https://humanconnectioncoach.com and she can be found on social media at https://instagram.com/meetmichellerenee.
If you'd like to have your own Intimacy Lab experience, book your one-on-one with Michelle and get the experience of the podcast, but privately. Go to https://intimacylabpodcast.com for more information.
To grab your own set of We’re Not Really Strangers https://amzn.to/47XJjvm
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Rough Transcript:
Michelle Renee (01:51)
welcome back to the Intimacy Lab. I'm excited to introduce my people to Nathan Young. Nathan, why don't you give a little introduction and then I'll kind of talk about how I came into your orbit or you came into mine or, yeah.
Nathan (02:04)
Okay. Either
those just was this collision, but they all just happened. Yeah. All right. My name is Nathan Young and my specialty is storytelling and narrative and I have worked for like 12 years now helping people tell their stories and this is kind of happens on a personal level and an organizational level with a lot of mission driven people and organizations and leaders. And yeah, I feel very blessed to be able to
Michelle Renee (02:10)
collision. ⁓
Nathan (02:34)
do this work, I stumbled into it through hosting live storytelling shows and events where we talked about the power of narrative in our world and how it affected our perception of ourselves and the world around us. And people started to approach me and say, hey, can you come teach this? My company will pay you money to do this for us. And I said, yes. And things just of evolved from there. So that's kind of like the long part.
The short version of it, the big thing I'm doing now is I've taken everything that I've been doing and the ways I've been talking about storytelling and narrative for the last decade or so, and I'm coalescing it into a framework I'm calling narrative leadership. And it's just a way of understanding how to align our inner and outer narratives. So we're sharing the story that really resonates with us as far as like the vision we have, the world we want to create, and finding a way to share that out in a way that's going to resonate with our audience too as a story that they can.
see themselves in and get behind and get excited about and have faith and trust in you as the leader of that story that you're telling.
Michelle Renee (03:36)
Yeah, I mean, we're in such a world now of like, self branding, right? Like, I am my brand, right? Like, I, you think about the long term vision of like, what are you building to pass on? I'm like, when I die, my brand dies pretty much, right? Like, because it's so much me.
Nathan (03:54)
I know, I know, yes.
Totally. So I'm curious, I'm gonna ask you a question here too, hopefully it doesn't like throw us off too much. But one of the big things I struggle with is just this idea of like, all right, I gotta like make a brand of myself. I've gotta do this. And it's, I'm just very conflicted about it. On one hand, it's kind of fun actually, to be honest. But on the other hand, it's like a little bit weird and exhausting. And it just feels kind of strange that like this is how...
the world is now and how I have to operate as a person in this world. ⁓ if I want to work for myself the way I am, like I've got to make myself a brand. And ⁓ that's, that's weird. I think it's weird.
Michelle Renee (04:38)
Mm-hmm.
I
think it requires figuring out what your boundaries are about disclosure. And I mean, I'm really fortunate in that I kind of am client number one for myself, like, or my husband is client number one. I'm not sure we kind of, you know, I think back when we met, I had a lot of work to do that I didn't realize I had to do. He definitely had a lot of work to do. I knew that, like I could see that.
Nathan (04:46)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (05:11)
And so much of how I like my driving force in my work is to take the lessons I learned from him and how he's loved me through that process and like pass that forward. So, yeah, my story is my brand and, you know, why I show up in the space. And that's part of our story together, you and I, Nathan, in that I think I met you before COVID.
Nathan (05:34)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (05:40)
You were doing some kind of gathering. Do you remember what it was? Like, can you remember the title of it even or not? It was something about, I feel like it was about men.
Nathan (05:49)
yeah, of course.
okay, I think that was just one particular event I did. But yeah, the whole program was called The New Narrative, and this is the speaker series I was doing. And then I started doing these smaller events as a part of it where I wanted to create a community out of it. So rather than having one big event a year, I'm trying to create weekly or bi-weekly events. And one of them was a discussion event series. the whole idea was these world cafe discussions where...
Michelle Renee (05:59)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (06:19)
we have these different questions that people have from table to table. And I think the one that you're referring to is we had a discussion like what's up with men is basically I think what it was. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (06:26)
Yeah, that's what it was. And I
think COVID hit or maybe I moved. It might have been the move. Yeah, I just, remember it was super cool. And it kind of reminds me of what I love about this space is like these questions and diving in. ⁓ I love that space. That was a great space. And I think it was Tiffany Compton, our mutual that ⁓ maybe sent me an invite or shared it on Facebook or something. And I just really.
Nathan (06:32)
COVID hit.
Mm-hmm. Totally.
Hmm?
I feel like we were connected before
that, but keep it, Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (06:56)
Really? We have a lot of mutuals that are not all from the same world.
Like, you know Arash, right? Yeah. And that's not a world where Tiffany is from, right? So like there's, when I think about if I went on our Facebooks right now and figured out who our mutuals were, it's a variety of different San Diego communities. And that's kind of cool. So maybe we were. I don't know. But I do know that since then,
Nathan (07:05)
Yeah.
Thanks.
Michelle Renee (07:27)
you've played a pretty intricate part of a lot of my self-discovery. Whether it be the self-discovery of what I need moving forward or understanding how I got here.
Nathan (07:33)
⁓ okay.
Okay. Yeah, yeah.
Michelle Renee (07:42)
Right? Like I want to
give you a lot of props for that. You've been the space that you hold like in your coaching and I just for the people at home, I went into a plan with you to like create like I wanted to create my story better because I feel like my story is so important to my work and people learning like why they want to connect with me.
And in the end, we ended up writing my why. I think we pivoted, and that was really helpful. But I definitely got an outline started for whatever day I want to start writing my book. I figured out a lot of stuff. But I remember one of the big moments. It felt like it was a form of narrative therapy. And I had this aha moment where I realized that when I sit in space with my ⁓ colleagues,
Nathan (08:10)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (08:34)
And there's this talk about, well, did you ask the client blah, blah, blah? And I'm like, no, I didn't. And I realized that in my history, asking questions is really dangerous. And that was something I put together with you, was like, I have to kind of rewrite that automatic kind of nervous system response of like, don't ask questions. And so I've been working on that since you, right? It's like, yeah.
Nathan (08:47)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What? So curious, like, yeah, what? How has that changed the way that you've operated since you've been making that shift?
Michelle Renee (09:09)
I'm more aware of it. So I think in slowing down, it gives me some space to remember to do that thing that doesn't feel natural to me.
Nathan (09:19)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Okay. What about... ⁓
Michelle Renee (09:20)
Yeah. Yeah.
Nathan (09:23)
I mean, I'm gonna bring it back to my little storytelling thing here too, if you don't mind. What do you feel like was the story you were telling yourself about why asking questions was dangerous?
Michelle Renee (09:25)
Yeah.
It just my father did not handle any kind of ⁓ feedback or anything that was perceived as. How do I describe him? He was a hot tempered dude, right? And so you learn to anticipate. Right. was which my old therapist told me made me really great at what I do, because I'm so attuned with my surroundings. ⁓
Nathan (09:41)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Right? Yeah.
Michelle Renee (10:01)
I can anticipate people's
needs so easy. Now there's that weird line of like over anticipation where you're, I have to walk the line of I think I know what you may need, but I might not be right. Where in my twenties, I thought I was right. I was sure that I knew what everyone was thinking, what they need. Like there was a, I don't know, typical 20 year old false confidence, something. ⁓
Nathan (10:14)
Yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yes, it happens. ⁓
Michelle Renee (10:30)
But was a combination of my father was really scary. so asking questions was really scary. like, not knowing everything was really scary also. another space that showed up in my life outside of asking questions to clients was getting a mentor the first time. I was so afraid to have someone really watch my work because I didn't know how to have like constructive feedback that didn't.
Nathan (10:55)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (10:57)
destroying me, right? And a lot of tears, but a lot of like, corrective emotional experience to have someone give me feedback, but it didn't mean I was a bad person. Right? So these things that we trapped from like such a young age that as an adult, we go, well, of course, that's a silly, like, why would you think that it was just the way my body held those memories or the last, the last
Nathan (10:58)
Yeah, there we go.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (11:25)
the last way questions were bad was that we lived in a house of complete disarray. My mother was kind of a hoarder. The place was a mess all the time. You did not answer the door, right? If somebody came to the door, you pretended no one was home. My mom would even lie to like the Jehovah Witnesses and tell them that my father would torture her if she talked to them. And we would hear all this stuff, right? So like, there's a lot of reasons that
Nathan (11:34)
Mm. Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (11:53)
⁓ privacy was really important. And to me questions are invading privacy if not consented to.
Nathan (11:56)
Hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Yeah. And so, on some level, it sort of sounds like the story was like showing too much of yourself is unsafe and like asking questions, asking for help, asking for mentorship is like unsafe.
Michelle Renee (12:19)
Well, the questions to me, I didn't want to have the questions asked to me as a kid. And so I get into like maybe a little over empathy or I don't want to put somebody else in that space of feeling uncomfortable by the questions, which is funny because now I come on a podcast and I ask questions or we try to be uncomfortable. It's so great.
Nathan (12:28)
Mm-hmm.
Well, know,
this is how we heal, right? We end up doing the opposite.
Michelle Renee (12:42)
No, I think it is practice.
It's absolutely practice. And I think it helps build the muscle. I think I said this on a recent episode, like I have enough confidence in myself that I know I'll be OK on the other side of it, no matter what I share. Right. I have my own inner. ⁓ Not giving that inner part of me away, like I've got that solidness that I'm good.
Nathan (12:57)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (13:11)
So I could say the silliest, stupidest thing or most embarrassing, right? Like tell your most embarrassing story and then nothing will ever embarrass you like that again. You know what I mean? Like I've had those stories where I'm like, I have a, I have a sex story where in the moment I said to my partner at the time, I'm not going to get into the details. ⁓ I feel like it's too much. ⁓ But I said to him, this may not go well.
Nathan (13:22)
True.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (13:39)
And if it does not go well, we will never talk about this ever, ever again." And he said, okay. And guess what? It did not go well. But give me six months and I can laugh about it I can tell the story and it's not a big deal, right? But in the moment, it's horrifying.
Nathan (13:44)
Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So you say we're never going talk about this again, then you went and talked about it in the podcast and he's like, ⁓ what?
Michelle Renee (13:56)
Absolutely! I'm
sure I've told the details somewhere and maybe probably on the show. So often people come to me and they're like, I heard you talk about that on your show. I'm like, wow I went into that much detail.
Nathan (13:59)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (14:04)
All right. Yeah, I love a good story. That's what we have in common, I think.
Nathan (14:06)
Well, yeah, well,
I mean, like this level of sharing opens the doors for other people to that's like a big part of it is that ⁓ it's on one. It's wonderful that we have this much more open world about all these things that were like so taboo for, you know, for me growing up as well. And like, think culturally, all this stuff is very taboo also. So just to even like speak it out loud was
not what you did. now here we are just like speaking out loud, throwing it up on social media, everybody can see it. I mean, it's, I think it's, yeah.
Michelle Renee (14:35)
No.
Episode 21, I broke
down having sex with my friend. Like you maybe you haven't heard that episode yet, but I like we did a sex experiment. He's a gay man. He was curious. I'm all for new experiences. And ⁓ in afterwards, the first thing I text him was, can we jump on Riverside and record our debrief on this tomorrow? Because I just knew that if we tried to recreate it.
Nathan (14:48)
Okay. No. Okay. Okay.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (15:12)
Like
if we had the debrief and we tried to recreate it, it would never be as good. And it's a fan, it's probably gonna be my absolute favorite episode. Because it's so real, it's so, like it's so me. We did not edit anything out of that conversation. Now, did we disclose every detail? No, but anything we talked about, we left in.
Nathan (15:16)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay, alright. Yeah.
Okay. ⁓
Michelle Renee (15:39)
And so, yeah, that's a very, that's a huge like move away from like not being sure how to like let people in, whether it's in my house or in my head or in my heart or in my body. It's a big, it's a big shift.
Nathan (15:50)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's all I.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (15:59)
Yeah.
Nathan (16:00)
Here we are.
Michelle Renee (16:02)
So anyways, are you ready to play some games with me? Alright.
Nathan (16:05)
Let's do it. I'm in. It's Friday.
We'll play some games. Got big weekends ahead of us. Let's kick it off right.
Michelle Renee (16:11)
big weekend ahead of
us. All right, not going to debrief my weekend on Monday, but okay. So the first level is perception. So how we perceive each other.
Nathan (16:21)
Okay. ⁓
okay.
Michelle Renee (16:23)
And I'm going to ask the question and then we're both going to answer it for each other. So the question is, do you think I've ever been fired from a job? If so, what for? And I have to think about this for you. And I've only ever known you as self-employed and you've only ever known me as self-employed, so.
Nathan (16:35)
Okay. Okay, I've got to think about this for you.
Yeah,
yeah, totally. know. It's, so yeah, it's funny because I'm thinking of like both ends here too, but all right. So, yeah, which one of us answers first then? Okay. The story I'm telling in my head is that I'm guessing you got fired from a job when you were young, like high school age. And, you know.
Michelle Renee (16:54)
If you've got something, you can run with it.
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (17:09)
one of those jobs people had in high school working at like a frozen yogurt shop or something. I don't know. And the reason why you got fired
Michelle Renee (17:15)
Okay.
Nathan (17:18)
I don't have a clear idea of that. I mean, I'm just speculating. I'm just kind of like rolling, you know? The reason why you got fired.
Michelle Renee (17:23)
Uh-huh.
Nathan (17:25)
I don't know, maybe just like the boss just didn't like it for some dumb reason that people don't like other people. That's the best I got right now.
Michelle Renee (17:36)
Cool.
I mean, I'll give you the truth. I've never been fired. I was too, like I was the, like I was the teacher's pet kind of person. like, I think I was people pleaser mode a hundred percent. I fired a boss when I was in high school. Like, I it was my senior year I was working in an office for a carpet cleaning company.
Nathan (17:39)
Okay. Never been fired. Wow. Okay.
Mm-hmm. ⁓ Mm-hmm.
Okay. Okay.
Okay.
Michelle Renee (18:06)
And the guy pissed me off so badly. can't even remember why, but I remember coming in one morning and I printed off my own paycheck. I said, sign it. I quit. And I walked out. I don't remember what he did or anything, but I had the attitude of my father, very much my father's daughter in that sense. And I was just like, this is unacceptable. I'm out of here. And the level that it had to hit probably for that to be the case was probably rather high. ⁓
Nathan (18:17)
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay. Yeah.
Okay, interesting.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (18:35)
because I was not a confrontation person back then.
Nathan (18:40)
Yeah,
but my impression of you, as you told me about your stories and stuff, as like a younger person, you would have been much more submissive or non-confrontational. And yeah. And so I was imagining like you were kind of getting like picked on a little bit. And that's, that maybe would have been like the one, two, three of how you got fired, but no.
Michelle Renee (18:51)
I was a rule follower. Yeah.
Yeah,
thankfully I was in that middle ground of people where I was smart and I was athletic. I don't feel like I ever fit in with either one of those groups really, but I floated pretty, I stayed under the radar pretty easily. So yeah, I really, I had an easy.
Nathan (19:09)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Michelle Renee (19:26)
I had an easy time until I became an adult and then adult problems hit life.
Nathan (19:30)
Okay. What?
Well, it's funny that you make it sound like easy time, like in a relative sense, because yeah, you just talked about like, how you're home.
Michelle Renee (19:37)
Well, yeah, comparatively,
I guess, like, that was my normal. don't Michelle of today couldn't go back into that space and call it an easy time at all. But that was like, I always go back to that analogy of like a frog in a pot of water, right? And like, it was the slow, the slow heat. And ⁓
Nathan (19:42)
Yeah.
No, no.
Michelle Renee (20:04)
It goes back to like even the idea that I look back and when my sister's son was diagnosed with autism, he's a spitting image of my father. And we all, me and my sisters kind of looked at each other and went, oh shit, I think dad was autistic. Well, if that's what we considered our norm, we're all looking at each other like, yeah, we're all probably a neuro, neuro spicy, you know, like it's.
Nathan (20:14)
a while.
Mm-hmm.
Maybe.
Michelle Renee (20:30)
It just was what we grew up around as being normal. So and I still, mean, it's the I don't know. There's a whole like there's a lot there where I'm like, that's like, that's what I would like. That's the things I gravitate towards is the the the neuro neuro spicy crew. Probably because of my father, my mother, I also can look back and say she certainly was like ADHD, but undiagnosed.
Nathan (20:34)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (21:00)
Just looking back, I'm like, that's that feeling of inattentiveness I had from her, which I, of course, did with my kids. You know? Yeah. Yeah.
Nathan (21:07)
Yeah, totally. Yeah. It's interesting to
think about like, because yeah, I see, you know, you get older, you sort of see your parents for who they are a lot more also. And then you start to learn about yourself. And then you're like, ⁓ they probably had that too. So
Michelle Renee (21:24)
⁓ yeah. Compassion
has taken a long time to show up. will like, but even the other day I was driving ⁓ to Phoenix and I stopped off not on purpose, but on purpose, kind of. I waited to get breakfast. had a phone, I had a meeting I had to get on and ⁓ my colleague Keely hates people chewing food.
Nathan (21:28)
For sure, for sure.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (21:46)
And so I avoided getting breakfast when I stopped for gas in Yuma because it's always the spot you stop to fill up because you get the Arizona gas taxes. you know, it's just, drive, every time I drive to Phoenix, I have a plotted plan, right? And I was like, I'll wait on breakfast. Well, the next place I could get breakfast once that meeting ended was, I can't remember what it's called, Gila something. It's a little, yeah, yeah.
Nathan (21:48)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
It's like gas station town like like Gila.
I know you're talking about it's on the freeway there. Yeah
Michelle Renee (22:16)
Yeah, okay. Yeah, there's a McDonald's there.
That is the last place I saw my father alive. 2019 on my drive to Baltimore. That particular McDonald's we met up there. I hadn't seen him in years. We met up there as I was driving cross country and did a little rendezvous there and that's the last place I saw him. Now I've driven past there a couple of times since then and I always have mixed feelings about it.
Nathan (22:23)
wow.
that particular McDonald's?
So.
Michelle Renee (22:42)
because it's like that's last place I saw him. He didn't try to fix our relationship and what have you. This time I stopped and I was just appreciative. I didn't have so much of the hurt. Like it felt like it was just lighter. It was good. And it just, takes time.
Nathan (22:52)
Boom.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, it does, it does, yeah.
Michelle Renee (23:04)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
So, okay. Back to the question. Okay. I think that... ⁓
⁓ I think the last time you worked a regular, like not for yourself, it ended in a firing. I'm just making up a story here, of course. I'm going to tell it. I have no imagination, but I'm going to create one here. You and you were so irritated by that firing. You started your career, right? And it was probably because you told a story that
Nathan (23:24)
Yeah, yeah. Okay, okay.
Hahaha.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (23:37)
⁓ was too revealing and it got you fired.
Nathan (23:40)
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Michelle Renee (23:43)
I don't know.
Nathan (23:44)
Yeah, no. That's not true. Yeah, right. Yeah. No, no, I left a good standing with my my last job before completely going on my own. And actually, I worked for the Fleet Science Center in Balboa Park. I was I did the marketing there and stuff. I ended up going back when I was like, need some extra money and doing some freelance work for him. So yeah, I left in No, no, no. ⁓ I left in Left in good stand. I actually like really love that job. And I was like,
Michelle Renee (23:47)
But it's kind of fun to make up. Yeah.
cool.
Didn't burn a bridge.
Nathan (24:13)
Part of what convinced me that I needed to work for myself though, because I was like, I really enjoyed that job, but I was struggling so hard. And I liked the people, I liked the concept behind it, I liked what I got to do, but I was just having such a hard time with like the day to day of that nine to five, and I had bigger ideas and bigger plans. And I realized like if I'm not, I've had many jobs.
and I've been fired multiple times. So just to be like, all right, if this, like if I'm struggling this hard here, this whole like job thing isn't gonna work for me.
Michelle Renee (24:51)
Like the, just the 40 hour like capitalist, you've got to, you show up like a robot every day, whether you can or can't.
Nathan (24:53)
Yeah.
Yeah,
yeah. And I think it's so funny that now I understand so much of my own tensions around that related to like ADHD and neuro spicy and all that stuff. I don't think I'm like super neuro spicy, but definitely like ADHD for sure. And one of the tensions that I realized now was like very much their retrospect was, yeah, it like, it was an office and it was like, quiet. And I just like couldn't do anything. I was so
I struggle to make anything happen for myself to get anything done there. Another thing that I do for myself is I take a long break in the middle of the day usually and I'll work from like you know eight until about like noon or 12 30 and then I'll take a break and I kind of pick it up again around like could be anywhere like two three or four o'clock and then I'll go for a couple hours from there and that's usually
You can't really do that when you have like a sort of nine to five. And I hold like the second half of my day was just like a waste every time. And then I suddenly got like a burst of energy, like right at four o'clock, right as I was like, well, shall I ride this out or should I leave? And so I was like working late all the time. And I think I also just struggled with like, be perfectly honest, like kind of working for other people.
Michelle Renee (25:57)
Yeah.
Nathan (26:20)
I think I've always been very self-directed and I feel most comfortable in that realm when I'm deciding what is going to happen and what work I'm going to do. And I think there's a neuro spicy element of that as well. Because when you're working for yourself, have to challenge. It's easy to let self-directed work take you down a path that doesn't actually make you money.
This is what I want to do. Yeah. Or even like the things that like, you know, you think you're on a path to making money, but just sort of like where you're focusing your attention on that path isn't necessarily like the direct, the direct A to B towards making income that you want to make either, which isn't necessarily like a problem unless you're like struggling with income, which I have many back and forth throughout my own entrepreneurial journey too. So
Michelle Renee (26:47)
Life fulfilling versus making money aren't always the exact same thing.
Yeah, I'm very lucky that I have a partner. I think that is a lot of privilege in the sense that I have a partner who technically makes enough money that if I didn't make enough money, we're not in a we're not in a pinch. ⁓ I remember so you were part of my decision to take sex out of my work. Mr. Nathan just says I'm getting my life
Nathan (27:15)
.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (27:42)
my life coaching certificate and I need to do these like video sessions. And I'm like, I love time with Nathan, I will sign up for this call, right? And then you're like, come with like some kind of dilemma or something like that. Like, what are we going to work on? And I the question I wrote was something like, how do you how when do know it's time to work the practice you want versus the practice you have?
Nathan (27:46)
that's right. remember. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was...
Okay.
Mm. Mm-hmm,
mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (28:11)
And the words at some point in that call the words I'd already worked through in my personal life that I was worth more than my sex, right? That was the de programming that really had to come out of my first marriage was that I had value beyond sexually gratifying my partner. And I mean, I literally thought that was my contribution to the family, because I was a stay at home mom, that if I at least
Nathan (28:20)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (28:39)
got him off every day, he would be a nicer person to live with and that would be how I contributed to my family. So you and I are sitting there and the words, I am worth more than my sex in my work came out of my mouth and I couldn't put it back in the box because I've worked so hard to stop self abandoning.
Nathan (28:46)
Okay.
Michelle Renee (29:06)
and I trust my truth. And like, as I saw that, was like, ⁓ shit, I have to change my practice. anybody at home complaining that I'm not, I stopped doing that part of my work, it's Nathan's fault. No, I'm kidding. It's my fault. You just, you created the environment to be able to say that. Like you are helpful in that.
Nathan (29:12)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, cool.
Michelle Renee (29:34)
that space. Clearly I could have avoided that, but I run into the fire. So yeah, yeah. And then I felt like I would fail. And then my husband said, don't worry about it. Even if you didn't work, we'll be okay. And I'm like, I won't be okay. But that's how this whole story circles back to like.
Nathan (29:37)
Mm-hmm.
that came out, yeah, no totally. No, I appreciate that.
You
Michelle Renee (29:54)
Making money versus doing what we want to do. Yeah.
Nathan (29:56)
Yeah, yeah, totally.
That was, I mean, I'm happy that you've gotten so much out of our time together that way because I mean, it is always interesting. think of, I don't do as much coaching as I used to, but when I do, I still love it and appreciate it because so often you're just the mirror, right? Like they're talking stuff and you're just kind of answering or just.
asking a little bit deeper saying like, well, I'm seeing this conflict right here. These are these two things are conflicted. Like, what do think of that? Like, I never saw it that way.
Michelle Renee (30:29)
Yeah.
Well, I remember listening to an interview years ago on a plane. I found the interview because I was so interested to re-listen to it all these years later. ⁓ It was about the myth of self-regulation. And what they were talking about was that even when we're by ourselves, we're still co-regulating with a memory. And part of that conversation, I
Nathan (30:57)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (31:01)
It doesn't tie exactly into the co-regulation part, but something she said was like, we all have the answers. We just need a safe place to talk it out.
And so part of our skill is to create, help create the safe space. I don't think we can like dictate it to be a safe space, but we can, we can, I call myself like a scaffolding, right? For them to do the work they need to do. And in our chemistry worked in a way that it made it really easy for me to have these big ideas and these, these big realizations that would, you know, change the course. Now I've said like, if I ever was in a situation of
Nathan (31:20)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Michelle Renee (31:38)
survival, I could add that back to my work and know that I would be okay. I would be okay financially. I don't know what that would do to my spirit if it was something that I didn't want to have my work based on. ⁓ But it is something, I mean, it's all about how you frame it in your head, right? Like this experience, this sex experiment with my friend.
Nathan (31:46)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Michelle Renee (32:05)
takes me right back to how much I love teaching in that space and helping someone experience something for the first time. I love that. So it's not like I couldn't go back there. It's just knowing that I'm in choice about it. And my choice is not to do that, at least not in that specific container of work. There's things about that container of work that just don't work for me. And it's just...
Nathan (32:21)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (32:33)
you know, learn thyself, figure out what works for you. And for you, it's you need to have a break in the middle of the day. I'm a very, I'm a very similar. I'm really good in the mornings. And then a lot of times it's just following what my, trust again, I trust myself and I'm like, ⁓ you need to get up and move around or change locations or sometimes just take my bed and go take my bed, take my dog into my bed.
And sometimes I'll even bring my laptop with me in case I get inspired to jump back into the work. But I might just be watching Sister Wives. You know what I mean? I love a good, ⁓ I call it ⁓ conscious dissociation. I've made a conscious choice to dissociate for a while, and that's reality TV for me.
Nathan (33:17)
Yeah, yeah.
I mean that's rest too on some level right? Like yeah.
Michelle Renee (33:24)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's just how I, you we all get to choose the way we want to do it. Find what find the thing that works for you. And in in in sometimes it's like it's a very introverted thing to do. And that's that's how I recharge. sometimes if I have people around me, I might even invite them to come in and watch the the show with me, but don't talk to me. You know I mean? Like.
Nathan (33:29)
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Michelle Renee (33:50)
You can be here with me, but I can't talk to you right now. I am done in the talking world. yeah, yeah, mornings and yeah, afternoons, because I bring my computer with me and next thing you know, I'm like, I get an idea and I pop back on my computer and get back to work and pause the show. But it's the absolute freedom to be able to do that whenever I want to.
Nathan (33:56)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you need that downtime. I get it.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (34:18)
And part of that freedom is allotted to me because I have a partner who's making sure that the bills can be paid and that he supports. He loves my work and he's so understanding. And I don't know. I don't know how I got so fortunate because it would be a very different life. Yeah, I got it. I take it. I take it. I'd to run all the way to the bank with it one of these days. Right.
Nathan (34:34)
Yeah, you got fortunate. Take it. Take the win.
Yeah, we're getting there. We're getting there. Yeah, yeah, and then he can quit and you know, you'll be yeah, pay it back or whatever.
Michelle Renee (34:46)
One day you say, one day all this work will pay off. One day it'll all pay off, yeah.
I don't know. When I first met him, I was in love with the 36 questions to fall in love. Do you remember when that came out? Yeah. So those at home, there was a study done that if they took these new couples on their first date and they had them answer these questions, the chances of them staying together were much higher because they had shared some kind of vulnerability.
Nathan (35:04)
Mm-hmm. Yep, I remember.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (35:21)
And one of my favorite questions from that, which I asked my partner, not on the first date, but it was a couple of months in. What would your dream day look like? So my favorite questions to ask, because it really shows you where people's priorities are and values are. And in his dream day, he would go to work. Because he loves what he does. He's a video game programmer, and he loves that world.
Nathan (35:41)
Okay. ⁓
Okay. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (35:47)
And that just meant, that means so much to me. I love my work. I don't know that it hits my dream day, because there's only 24 hours in a dream day and I gotta be at the beach for part of that. But I also, gosh, I got life satisfaction in my work. Like the cool, I imagine you feel this way, because I feel this way about it.
Nathan (35:55)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly.
Okay.
Michelle Renee (36:14)
having you be part of my story, but how awesome it is to be part of someone's story. And I'm totally a part of so many people's story that I love. If I could make all that be part of my ideal day, I totally would.
Nathan (36:14)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. it's, I mean, it's really special to be able to, it's like a privilege and a responsibility to like be able to live a life and make a living doing things where you're like helping people, helping people grow and help people change their perspective and write a new story for themselves. So yeah, totally.
Michelle Renee (36:53)
I get to be a new co-host in that story that they have.
Nathan (36:54)
Yeah.
I don't know if I would make it my dream day, but yeah, I would say like, wouldn't be a dream day. But like, if in the course of like a dream week, it'd be
Michelle Renee (37:00)
I wouldn't be mad if it showed up in it.
Mmm. Yeah, cuz
it 20 but like I said 24 hours is not a lot of time
Nathan (37:13)
Yeah, it'd be like maybe, you know, two of the days of the dream week. Two and a half. Yeah, yeah, just like really put it in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (37:21)
I have a good solid work day in there. Good solid work day. Yeah. And
when I say that, I mean a good solid work day where I'm in client time. Because like for me, yeah, like I, we talk about like the desire to work for ourselves and me becoming an owner at Cuddlist this year is so great because all the things I've ever wanted to do for the, with that company, I can do that now.
Nathan (37:30)
Yeah, exactly. Not like admin.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (37:51)
Like I never wanted to give them all of me, but now I can
like really invest in a different way than I could when I was just an employee, right? Like there's a different, I feel like I only have so much creative juice, right? And when you have your own, I have my own practice, I have to not give all my creative juice to somebody else's project. I should be putting it into my project. And I've been,
Nathan (38:00)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yes, yes, yes.
Michelle Renee (38:18)
in the background of Cuddlist since 2016. And I've had to hold that back for, you know, I did, I was operations for like 2016 to 2020. And then I took a break and I came back in 2023 as a director of training and I had really good boundaries around my time and energy. But when I became a co-owner, now I'm way more time on Cuddlist stuff, but I love it. Right. It's, like, I, I,
Nathan (38:40)
Yeah, totally.
Michelle Renee (38:44)
compared to like a horse ⁓ being held back from a horse race, right? And then you finally let them out of the gate and they take off, right? Like that's how I felt is like I've been held back. I've been holding myself back with good boundaries to not over participate. And now that I'm a co-owner, I'm like, yeah, I can do all the things.
Nathan (38:48)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Is it, so now that you're a co-owner what part is helping you do that? you feel like there's going to be a reward for putting this extra effort into it? Or do feel like you need to now have a bit more power to do the things you want? Or is it, you just have this sort of big dream and you want to go for it?
Michelle Renee (39:27)
It's interesting because as an owner, what's really fascinating about buying into Cuddlist is that Cuddlist and I agree with this. This is part of reason I bought in was that we have a real desire to have a zero profit model. So all of our people are paid the exact same rates, no matter what their job in the company is. ⁓ We want to reinvest in the company and in our people. And so I get paid the same hourly rate as
Nathan (39:41)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (39:56)
everybody else. So there'll never be like a dividend on investment kind of thing. It's not this my sister calls me after the announcement. She was, this is great for retirement. I'm like, actually, I expect to earn nothing outside of my hourly from this investment. But what it is, is it's commitment to the industry. It's a commitment to like shaping it to to being
Nathan (40:07)
Yeah
Okay.
What?
Michelle Renee (40:22)
⁓ influencer in that space. ⁓ I take my background in surrogate partner therapy and like see what is possible in what seems like a really simple cuddle space, but offers so much potential and I get to be a part of helping the world understand that or tap into it. It's, and it's also incredibly hard work and very defeating at times. Like I woke up Tuesday morning,
Nathan (40:50)
Thank you.
Michelle Renee (40:52)
feeling some imposter syndrome, comparing myself to some of my colleagues. Work has been really slow. I think it's the new administration and all the contraction of the economy. And I just had a day of funk where you question all your decisions. I haven't had one of those in a while. And I let myself have it, and it included a big nap.
Nathan (41:06)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Michelle Renee (41:20)
It just did. was supposed to, I was supposed to have a call actually with our mutual Arash. He was, we were set to talk at two o'clock that day. I put my phone on, not disturb, forgot that I had a plan to talk to him and crashed out and just took care of myself. And, and I think I had like one meeting I had to take later that like late in the afternoon. And, and then I went back to bed again.
Nathan (41:33)
Mm. Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (41:48)
And I woke up the next day refreshed and, you know, maybe not 100 % ready to go back and fight the good fight. But I wasn't in the funk that I was in the day before. And I don't think you can ignore it. And expect it to pass. But like, I'm just going to lay in wallow in it and let myself like sleep it off, you know.
Nathan (41:58)
Yeah, that's all there.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, totally.
⁓
Yeah, it is interesting how working for yourself is such an emotional ride too. And I don't think that was quite part of the story that I anticipated. And I've had some emotional jobs in the past too. So like I was used to having that kind of be part of the spin, but this was like, yeah, it's been just like you're in a funk and you're
got a struggle, like the struggle sometimes is like working through it or just taking some time off laying down or and I struggle with that too because I'm usually my answer is usually well I'll we'll just like put my head down and work through this and ⁓ you know it it has it's a sometimes sometimes the funk just needs to like sit with you for a while too and it's like not nearly
really matter what you do about it. Just give yourself a day or two and maybe it'll go away. That's my experience at least. So I don't know.
Michelle Renee (43:13)
Yeah,
I did like, do I need right now? Question, and I thought, well, my husband's working in the living room, because that's where his desk is set up as we both spend, it's so weird that we spend like all day, every day together, even though we're not together, but we both work from home. I'm like, what was it like before then? ⁓ And so I just walked out and I like walk up behind his chair and I just put my arms around him from the back of him. He's in the middle of programming and...
Nathan (43:21)
Mm.
Michelle Renee (43:42)
It probably wasn't well thought out. I mean, it clearly wasn't well thought out. It wasn't the best plan, but it was the thing I thought I needed at the moment. And then he put on his fix it hat.
Nathan (43:55)
⁓
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (43:58)
unfortunate for our DNA. ⁓ He put on his, I'll help Michelle fix this. And I really, that's not what I needed. I just needed a long hug. Right. And I, and he started to like, well, what if you do this and what if you do that? I sat down on the couch and I went, if I wanted to intellectualize this, I could do that myself. And then I said, I think I need to use the bathroom now. And like exited, you know, stage left.
Nathan (44:24)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (44:26)
and let him go back to work. And then that night at dinner, I said that, you know, that wasn't really what I needed, right? And he goes, yeah, I kind of realized that I kind of just put my, I'll fix it hat on and that's not what you needed. And I was like, no, it wasn't. And I also, the timing of me coming right in the middle of you being in your engineer brain is probably not helping either, right? So it wasn't a blow up or anything like that. It was just kind of like, eh, eh, eh, that.
Nathan (44:38)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah,
Michelle Renee (44:55)
That didn't go as well as I would have liked.
Nathan (44:57)
Yeah, yeah. That was a point of tension in my relationships during pandemic because I but I'm in work mode. I'm like, in work mode. And then if my partner wanted attention, that'd be like, okay, what's happening? What do you need? Like, what's going on? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (45:10)
Mm-hmm.
That is almost exactly what it felt like with him. I knew in the moment I was catching him completely, asking him to context shift so stinking fast.
Nathan (45:23)
Yeah, totally. And was
Michelle Renee (45:24)
Yeah.
Nathan (45:24)
he like, I don't know, babe, why don't you try this? Let me try that. He's just like kind of typing and stuff or was he, it'd be more to, okay. Okay. Okay.
Michelle Renee (45:29)
⁓ no, he's, he's gotten better at being more present. He will
stop what he's doing and literally orient his body towards me. He's learned his lesson. It's been nine years. You know, he's, he's, he's learned how to be more attentive. ⁓ but it was that we forget to ask, what do you need right now? Rather than just assuming you need me to help you come to a solution. And I would have been like,
Nathan (45:37)
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Michelle Renee (45:57)
either a nice long standing hug or do you have five minutes to go cuddle? Like one of those things that I just I take responsibility for not vocalizing that. But. Yeah, no worse for the wear. I'm better today. I'm ready to take over the world again. It's fine. It's fine. We're all good. OK, where was I at here?
Nathan (46:10)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah, you figured it out. You talked it through. Yeah. Perfect. Got it.
⁓
Michelle Renee (46:28)
Okay, we finally got to level two.
Nathan (46:29)
We're like what yeah, yeah, we've made it one card in here so far, but okay. Let's do it next card
Michelle Renee (46:34)
I told you.
okay. How would you describe the feeling of being in love in one word?
Nathan (46:41)
Ha
Michelle Renee (46:41)
I want to like put asterisk stuff like, okay, let's talk about what does it mean to be quote unquote in love? What is that word?
Nathan (46:47)
Yeah, and is this, I'm like
answering for myself now, right? Okay. ⁓
Michelle Renee (46:52)
Yeah. ⁓ But
how do you describe the feeling of being in love?
Nathan (46:58)
Yeah.
There's sort of two things happening for me, thinking about that. And I'm not...
I'll give thrift to the one word for one of these things. ⁓
Because there's one, I do like the one word, because there's like one version of it where it's just like you're elated and I'm feeling it right now. You just sort of like that feeling in your chest and like everything's sort of great and like you just feel wanted and needed and connected to someone and you know, lot of like, it can be very easy to feel.
just kinda untethered and floating around when you aren't in love or aren't in relationship and like just like what am I doing and life can feel kinda empty but then you do like life just feels very full and wonderful. So it's that.
And then the other direction, I would say the one word is chaos.
Michelle Renee (47:53)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (47:54)
And this is like what I've been unpacking for myself like last couple of years. I didn't realize this was, I didn't really realize this about me until recently, but like, yeah, it just... ⁓
It's just like sort of an emotional roller coaster for me. And I didn't, you know, I didn't really realize that and how much that was happening or just to be sort of caught in the wind of it all. Like I'm just a kite in the wind of my own emotions and the wind just gets so much stronger when you're in love. And then especially when you're having like tensions and conflicts with each other. So you're talking about the like.
coming out in the middle of the workday and like having a thing and like, you know, this is a very common problem in my last relationship, especially when we're like suddenly working at home and stuff. And I need to like work very hard to get myself into a place of focus. And so when my partner comes out and she needs something like, I love her. So I'm going to try to provide it. But I'm also like, in the middle of something. Yeah, derailed. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Michelle Renee (48:55)
derailed.
Nathan (48:58)
And
so I sort of struggle to be like, okay. And then, and it takes me about, I've realized about myself too, it takes about five to 15 minutes for me to shift gears that way sometimes if I'm not expecting it. And so in that five to 15 minutes, ⁓ anything can happen where I am addressing the situation in a way that's unhelpful for her. That could even be upsetting or just disappointing. And then...
now we've got a whole different conflict on our hands. And I'm still like, what's happening? What's going on here? And then I'm still like, part of my brain is like, you didn't finish that email, you didn't finish that email, you didn't finish that email, your partner needs help, email help happening. When did you eat last? Like, all this stuff starts to like happen and then just get very like, derailed and disoriented. And then you just kind of like, God, that's so
Michelle Renee (49:47)
huh.
Nathan (49:56)
Okay, what's happening? It becomes sort of internally frustrating. And then I wouldn't really necessarily let that frustration come out. And that was like another thing. And then, you know, at some point, whatever happens happens. And I'm trying to go back to work. But then it's like another like 2030 minutes to like, right, where was I? What was happening? What window I'm looking at? Which window that and like, you just go down a different path.
Michelle Renee (50:06)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (50:23)
That fucking email.
Michelle Renee (50:26)
Yes, all of that. And this is how I felt through having young children. Was the same kind of pull like.
Nathan (50:28)
Hahaha!
Okay.
Michelle Renee (50:38)
I think in retrospect.
Nathan (50:39)
you
Michelle Renee (50:40)
I don't think I was a good mom. And I don't think I really enjoyed motherhood for that reason is I don't do well being pulled in multiple directions. Like I'm very like rigid in.
That email, that thought, that email thought, like I told, and now I know enough about myself to say, and I can say this to an adult differently than I could say it to my children. don't think my children would have ever got it. Hold that thought. have to finish this thing and then I will be able to give you my full attention. But that was a maturity I didn't know about myself, you know, back in those times. even with Paul now, here's a confession.
Nathan (50:57)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (51:22)
I'm really good at staying focused when it's a scheduled session. Like I said this to a client one day, you know, he said something like, ⁓ we were playing a yes, no game. And he said, ⁓ could we go to dinner together? And I said, as a client or as a friend, cause I'm going to show up differently. And he's like, like, tell me more. And I was like, if you're paying for my time, you have a hundred percent of my attention.
Nathan (51:26)
So, thanks.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (51:51)
It is so easy for me to show up in that space. The
container is very clear. You have paid for one hour of time. You have one hour of my attention. I'm not thinking about groceries. not like I am solely focused on you. It is so easy for me to do that. Outside of that space. I I am multitasking constantly of like.
Nathan (52:00)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (52:15)
I'm talking to you, but I'm going to check my email or I had that thought I got to write it down real quick before I lose it or whatever. so like when when the tables are flipped and my husband comes in and says, oh, my gosh, I got to tell you about work today. I have a really hard time changing context of whatever I'm doing. So for me, it's better if we go for a walk together to have that conversation because there's no other distractions.
Nathan (52:19)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
You
Michelle Renee (52:44)
If we're just sitting here and my computer's in the way or my phone is close by or anything, I have such a hard time. But I also have a ton more compassion for my mother. In retrospect. Yeah, those those feelings, though, of abandonment because she couldn't pay attention to me, those don't go away. But I understand that it wasn't it wasn't about me. Like intellectually, I know that.
Nathan (52:46)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. For sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think about that a lot.
Mm-hmm. totally, totally, totally.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (53:11)
it's reprogramming the subcordial brain.
Nathan (53:11)
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it's like, you know, our hunter gatherer primal needs in a capitalist society show up there. Like, yeah. That's interesting what you're saying about all that, because yeah, it's definitely like.
Michelle Renee (53:25)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Nathan (53:33)
I think of my own parents in that regard too, like how they probably were quite stressed about it all and didn't quite know how to cope or manage it. And there wasn't conversations about coping or managing with it at all. And maybe it was days before internet and stuff. So on one level, like maybe it was easier, on another level it probably was a little bit, yeah, it's different. You know, there's probably was still plenty of challenges, right? So.
Michelle Renee (53:37)
Mm-hmm.
Different.
Yeah, mean, my mother was
in an abusive relationship. I was in an abusive relationship. Like generationally, I was in the same relationship my parents were in. ⁓ Do my kids look back at that and go, well, mom had all these other stressors? Probably not. I mean, knowing how that inner child piece works.
Nathan (54:03)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm.
Michelle Renee (54:23)
our inner children aren't thinking about the full context of the space. We're incredibly egotistical and everything is about us and it's our fault and all these things, right? So like, I think it's just part of like,
Nathan (54:26)
No.
Thanks, everybody.
Michelle Renee (54:36)
The self-compassion is able to now eventually spill over into compassion for my parents. Yeah, they all thought they were doing a better job than their parents. I'm 100 % sure that they thought that. And maybe they were. They were doing a different job for sure. You know, yeah.
Nathan (54:42)
Yeah, totally.
Well, maybe they were. Maybe they were. I throw
an idea at you about the other piece we're talking about of when we want attention from our partners and they're working and whatever?
I've had a thought that like, I'm wondering if there can be sort of like conversations about consent around asking for attention too. And like, like, hey, can I have your attention and give me, you know, the ability to say like, now we're not five minutes, you know, and like be able to say it like that, like, no, we're not like five minutes, five minutes, five minutes, whatever. And like, I need some emotional attention now, can you give it to me? Like, not right now.
Michelle Renee (55:14)
Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Nathan (55:33)
but like in like half an hour or something, you know, like I can start to prep myself to be available to offer that to you shortly. I don't know how long it's gonna take me to get in that space, be able to have that for you. ⁓ But.
Michelle Renee (55:45)
Yeah, that
is like senior level ⁓ regulation, right? Like, yes, I think in an ideal world that I've been picked on at times about the level of consent that I talk about, of like even asking someone to consent to a conversation or this is the same thing, consenting to a conversation, a very specific one, but ⁓ I think that is about like we're both adults.
Nathan (55:51)
Mm-hmm. ⁓
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (56:14)
We have our own shit going on. That part that doesn't slow down enough to ask that question, almost to say, I schedule time with you? I think it's that inner child kind of stomping my feet and saying, but mom, why aren't you listening to me? You know what I mean? it's getting that, like acknowledging that part of myself that really wants what I want right now.
Nathan (56:24)
Yeah, yeah,
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, totally.
Michelle Renee (56:40)
because it's uncomfortable and I want to stop
the discomfort. And this is my person. I feel confident that they're going to be able to stop my discomfort. So then in that space where he doesn't stop my discomfort, I'm patting myself on the back that I didn't blow up. I may have said a few rude things in my head, but I kept them in my head, right? I'm like, I can see what's happening here. He's trying to fix something. That's not really what I need. And at that time, I didn't have the
Nathan (56:46)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (57:09)
I didn't feel like I had the skill to say, time out, that's not actually what I need right now, but I understand that you're not available. Instead, I didn't do any harm. just said, yeah, I could intellectualize it myself. It wasn't said in like a rude way, but then I just exited the room and I didn't hold it over him. I addressed it later just to like call it out of like that was a mismatch situation, but it didn't have to turn into like.
Nathan (57:23)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (57:37)
You don't care about me. I'm not the most important thing in your life. All the things that my inner child would probably love to say. ⁓ Getting a hold of that, it's like, I feel like I'm a ⁓ goat roper or something. Like I can watch myself in the moment and be like.
Nathan (57:39)
Yeah.
How's that ever happened though? How's that like?
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (58:04)
this didn't work out the way you wanted it to and it's okay. You know? Like, but that's not, I'm not always like that. And, but I'm better.
Nathan (58:05)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, totally, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's, it's just as you're saying all this, like, I'm very much seeing it from your partner's kind of perspective. And how many times that's like turned into like a major fight or disagreement or something. And I always wanted to scream like, yo, this is unfair. This is unfair. You came you asked me for something out of the blue. Like I was not ready. I was not prepared. And like I couldn't play by some rules that were like
I didn't know at the time, I, you know, like, there's very, I would never do that. Like that's like my sort of like, inner child being able to like put adult words on the thing, but just being like, yo, like, no, like that, that was, you should, like, that was fucked up.
Michelle Renee (58:58)
Yeah, both sides have like like I came into the relationship
with like, I don't know, Disney fairy tale ideas of what was supposed to happen. He came into the relationship with just a lack of experience and he had a really stable household. didn't understand like he hadn't dealt with conflict and like ⁓ I say stable.
Nathan (59:06)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Thank
Michelle Renee (59:25)
They were stable and they didn't have a lot of conflict. think you can have conflicts and still have stability. ⁓
Nathan (59:26)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (59:32)
There's been so many years of me blowing up and blaming him that he wasn't taking good enough care of me and he didn't care enough about me. And I've been on the side of the ugly response, right?
than not being able to really step into his shoes and see what he was dealing with at the time and that there was more in his life than just what was happening to me in that very moment, right? So I don't want anybody to think that this is how we've always navigated this relationship at all. There is maturity happening all the time and I'm glad because I get to do it a different way and there's always another chance to do it a different way.
Nathan (59:55)
Mm-hmm. ⁓
Yeah, that's all.
Michelle Renee (1:00:15)
And there's always a different, I get to change the narrative of what that means. Right? I chose to not make it mean anything about me. That is a, that's a long place to get to. It's a really long place to get to. So, but it's a much nicer story. You know, like, and I don't, I think a new re, okay, so let's go back to the question about.
Nathan (1:00:20)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:00:41)
the feeling of being in love. I'm gonna, well, because I wanna focus on the word, on the part of it where it says in love, because I feel like we put that in a different context in our society of the difference between love, like I love you, but I'm not in love with you. And what does that mean? I just think the in love part is the drugs. It's the falling in love. It's the out of control,
Nathan (1:00:43)
I always say forget these kind of questions.
Like that first three to six months.
Michelle Renee (1:01:12)
Yeah,
the new relationship energy, if you're familiar with that phrasing or ⁓ the chaos you mentioned. To me, that's not about love, that's about euphoria and the high of getting these things. I'm going to probably need to edit this pause out, but I want to pull up. ⁓ I want to pull up.
Nathan (1:01:20)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, could like cut it.
What are you gonna pull up? us.
Michelle Renee (1:01:41)
I'm going to pull up some words here just a minute. I got to find the right text message. I met somebody at dinner the other night and they turned me on to this book and I'm reading it right now
Nathan (1:01:46)
So, okay.
Michelle Renee (1:01:53)
So she turned me on to book called How to be an Adult in Relationships, the Five Keys to Mindful Loving by David Rico. It's an older book. The 20th anniversary edition is the most recent out, so it's been around a while. But they talk about the five A's that
Nathan (1:02:05)
Wow. Okay.
Michelle Renee (1:02:16)
like we're always looking for in the areas that we're looking for, most of the ones that were not met by our parents. So the five A's are affection, attention, appreciation, acceptance, and allowing.
Nathan (1:02:22)
Okay, let's hear the A's.
Michelle Renee (1:02:32)
And if those needs were met when we were young, we are not searching for them so frantically. And what happens in the beginning of a relationship, all those A's are being met because of all the excitement and energy, right? Yeah, affection, attention, appreciation.
Nathan (1:02:40)
Okay, so that.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Let's hear them again. them what are they again?
Mm-hmm. Okay.
Michelle Renee (1:02:57)
acceptance and allowing.
Nathan (1:03:01)
No,
Yeah, totally.
Michelle Renee (1:03:02)
So there's some phrases that come out of this and I'm curious how they will land with you. I am paying close attention to you now.
I accept you as you are in this moment. I allow you to be yourself. I appreciate you for what you have been and what you are. And I have real affection for you no matter what.
Nathan (1:03:24)
Those are nice
Michelle Renee (1:03:24)
Those are how we feel early in relationship.
Nathan (1:03:26)
Yeah,
yeah, feeling like a receiving end of that.
Michelle Renee (1:03:30)
Yeah, so we got to figure out how to meet some of those needs for ourselves so that we're not putting all that on our partner.
Nathan (1:03:36)
Yeah, totally. And being able to like, but also like, be able to bring them back around when you need them, you know, for your partner because
Michelle Renee (1:03:44)
Well, and for yourself and like
what they brought up, there's a there's a I got like a preview watching an interview that he was podcast he had done. And they talk about like when you have that cycle of breaking up and getting back together, like some some relationships do that a lot. It's because it brings all those five As back up and they're all getting met again. And then it falls apart, you know, not falls apart, but falls off. Right. And so like to go back to my thing, I was like,
Nathan (1:04:00)
you
Yeah, totally.
Thanks.
Michelle Renee (1:04:12)
that feeling of being in love, I don't really want to feel that. It's interesting. I'm very settled in my relationship. I think there's a long enough history that I don't doubt his love and care for me. And we're in an open relationship and I have really deep, meaningful friendships with lots of people and they can go all sorts of places. And I was recently asked by one of the people I hang out with,
Nathan (1:04:17)
you
Michelle Renee (1:04:40)
Do you fall in love easily? And I was like, no.
I love everybody. But if you ask me about falling in love, I hope I never am back in that place. Because to me, the way it translates in my system is that I'm looking for something from somebody else that I'm not giving myself.
Nathan (1:04:58)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:05:02)
because that's what it represents to me in the past.
Nathan (1:05:05)
Yeah. Did you used to fall in love easily?
Michelle Renee (1:05:08)
my god.
I also thought that every man that came in my life was gonna be the one that rescued me. Cause I never could have considered that I would be able or needed to rescue myself. It was an outsourced job. any, when I was married to my first husband, any man that gave me attention, I was in love with. And I had a whole fantasy about how he was gonna rescue me. We would run away together. It's kind of gross.
Nathan (1:05:14)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
Michelle Renee (1:05:37)
The version of Michelle that I am now is just there's a little bit of like I had to do a lot of therapy around just the shame of having that like that was in my bones.
Nathan (1:05:42)
Hmm. Yeah.
Yeah, how much of that do you see? Because that's also like a young thing to do too, right? And how much of that do you interpret as like...
Michelle Renee (1:05:53)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
maturing.
Nathan (1:05:59)
Yeah, maturing versus, you know.
Michelle Renee (1:06:01)
I mean, we all mature at different ages. Some of us never probably mature in that. I think it is about emotional maturity though. I mean, I think that.
Nathan (1:06:03)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:06:12)
As I've grown, what in love means to me is just different. I would never, I can't see myself saying to a partner, I love you, but I'm not in love with you. Like I don't use the word like, I never think in my head, gosh, I'm so in love with you. I don't know. That phrase doesn't run through my head. I think I'm so lucky to have you in my life.
I think, you know, I don't know, just, it's kind of like love is such a very overused word. And it's not that I hold it back and I'm not afraid to approach it with people, but love to me is just about care.
And it's a choice. That's how I see it.
Nathan (1:06:54)
Yeah,
okay. Yeah, you're gonna get like, my next question too is like, do you think there's a piece where you're holding back or do you worry there's a piece where you're holding back and not allowing yourself to feel that out of like a fear?
Michelle Renee (1:07:04)
Mmm.
I think I got to feel it with my husband back when I was earlier in our relationship. I don't think that it, I think I went through it with him. And I don't, again, I don't know what it would be like if I was single and out in the world. I think as a non-monogamous person, I don't overly emotionally invest maybe.
Nathan (1:07:19)
Hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:07:31)
Yeah, I think he's the one that knows me the best. And I don't think I share that part. I don't think I share all of me with everyone. If I mean, as much as I share so much. ⁓ I don't think anyone knows me to the degree that he knows me. Like I will talk to him about the darker shadowy stuff.
Nathan (1:07:49)
Yeah, that seems reasonable.
Michelle Renee (1:07:54)
where I don't talk about that with a lot of people. Yeah.
Nathan (1:07:57)
Interesting.
I'm curious in your like, sort of, cause I've dabbled in like polyamory, but never been like full in.
And like...
One of my experiences with it though was that...
The degree that I dabbled, mean, it was more like, I just was dating multiple people at the same time and it wasn't full on relationships. But one of the things I sort of liked about it was ⁓ I got to be just different sides of myself with different partners. And that was fun. None of them ever fully knew me, but they knew a part of me. And one would be more just sort of party fun and one would be more intellectual and one would be a little more cynical. that's kind of like...
Michelle Renee (1:08:37)
Yeah.
Nathan (1:08:37)
different
little pieces there. And I mean, I always appreciated that. guess it sounds like that comes up. Does that still come up for you though, even after all these years, like you've got your one partner where you've been together for nine years and like, he knows you best. Do other partners see a little, get a piece of you that maybe he doesn't though, and like not necessarily a good or bad way, just sort of like, oh, there's a space where this comes out for me that.
Michelle Renee (1:09:03)
Well, okay, so I don't consider myself poly, but I certainly live a very poly life. Like I think I am poly as a person. think of my work as like, I think my clients are partners in some ways. It's clearly not the same as like a poly relationship, but I think I give a lot to these different places in my life. I really don't wanna manage other relationships. Like I have friendships that have different,
Nathan (1:09:06)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:09:33)
layers to them. So I don't use the word partner, but I think of like, I've been navigating this, I think this year has been an interesting topic I've had with a few people in my life of like, it's nice to have somebody in your life that's not so complicated. My relationship with my husband is complicated, right? We have domestic stuff, we have health stuff, we have all these different components, right? That aren't fun. and, and, and
Some of that like makes sex hard, let's just say as an example. Sometimes I'm like...
This thing that happened outside the bedroom is so not sexy, right? And like, I can't help but carry that into the space and it's just not making me want to rip your clothes off. You know what I mean? Like it's domestic shit, right? And then I was talking to somebody at conference recently and he was saying something like, I found myself kind of being a surrogate partner in a way. And I've helped a lot of people through these transitional parts of their life. And he's like, yeah, there was something that came up about
Nathan (1:10:16)
Thank
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:10:35)
I don't remember how we got there. But I said, but you know what, sometimes casual sex is just easier. Like it's less complicated. so I have this little like niche area of my life. I'll just say like there's a person I hang out with that it is kind of this little fantasy nook space, right? Where I still get the loveliness of like,
Nathan (1:10:51)
Mm-hmm.
Cool.
Michelle Renee (1:11:01)
getting to know a new person and in like the date experience of like, takes me out to dinner and we get to like the newness of getting to know a new person without all the complications of why did you do that? You know what I mean? Like the, but just the mundane stupid life stuff. There's something to be said that is really lovely about that. But in my, in my space of like,
Nathan (1:11:17)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:11:29)
⁓ falling in love with that person? No. And I don't even, it's not even like a thing I have to, like, I don't think I'm protecting myself from that. It's just a nice little, I will protect that little corner of my life that is less complicated. Like that's a really nice thing to have is, and I think this is why people should have a variety of, you know, relationships in their life and not just like, my first marriage is very much.
Nathan (1:11:45)
Yeah, yeah, totally.
Michelle Renee (1:11:56)
my partner had to be my person. he was like, there was a problem if I was too emotionally close to other people in my life. And I just think like, I never want to be in that kind of relationship again. That's the poly I guess, side of me is that I want to share all sorts of intimacies with all sorts of people in my life. I just don't think of them in the sense of like, this is a partner.
a romantic relationship. just think of it as a friendship that can have lots of different components to it. So did I answer? don't remember exactly what your question was.
Nathan (1:12:31)
Yeah, mean, yeah.
Yeah, it's, mean, I think you answered, don't know, whatever it was.
Michelle Renee (1:12:36)
Yeah, I
think that I feel for people that are in monogamy.
Not from a, like I love monogamy. I think all sorts of relationship styles are great for people. But there's an extra difficulty in when you have that one person and you have all these complexities and you're still trying to keep the flame alive, right? Like that is a hard job and it does not happen accidentally.
Nathan (1:12:55)
Mm-hmm.
Yes. ⁓
Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:13:09)
you have to work on it.
And that's not to say that you don't have to work in any other kinds of relationships. I just want to say like, as in the moment I'm in right now in my relationship with like, Paul's been dealing with some health stuff this year, he's had a lot of migraine issues. And like that caused extra strain in our relationship. I got very excited to have sex outside of that relationship, just from the sense that it was easy. It didn't come with so much
Nathan (1:13:35)
Yeah, yeah, totally.
Michelle Renee (1:13:38)
extra stuff. And I just, I get it. Like, and I get that that's probably how a lot of affairs happen, right? Is this becomes this little fantasy pocket.
Nathan (1:13:39)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
totally. Well, it is tough too and I think...
I'm going to give it a gendered thing here, but I'm not sure how gendered it actually is, to be honest. like, I think, yeah, one of the things I know that men sort of like unspoken thing men struggle with is if they sort of like let that aura of masculinity sort of fade and show vulnerability, then they'll lose the attraction, you know? And I've definitely experienced that sort of anecdotally. I don't know that like it's true universally.
And maybe it was just sort of an aspect of the relationship there. maybe it's like the maturity of the other person, maybe it's true maturity of me, or maybe how just what I did was not a turn on regardless of where was on the masculinity spectrum and stuff. But it is like when you're sort of younger, and you're figuring these things out, it does be that that does kind of confirm a story we've gotten from society to where you're like, all right, like that, you know,
think of a time where I really did like kind of open up to a woman I was seeing when I was like, you know, early 20s about something I was like, just like really upset about. And she just, you know, that was that was it. That was in a relationship and I was like, never doing that again. You know. And and yeah, and it's so it's so interesting how that goes. I'm sure there's like things for women like worry about.
Michelle Renee (1:15:04)
Yeah. Yeah.
Nathan (1:15:17)
showing a side of themselves that will turn off their husband or like be into needier, naggy or whatever it might be. ⁓ But yeah, so it is like, it is a challenge to like, sort of maintain that attraction and, and we have that sort of expectation in our world right now too, right? Like partners, they're gonna, they gotta
be your sort of partner in crime for everything. They gotta be your co-parent. They gotta be your basically like your business partner for whatever little enterprise you got going on in your world, whether it's just like a house or managing the house or whatever. They gotta be like the most amazing lover. They gotta do all this stuff. Like we gotta do that for each other. And it's just a very, very tall and unfair order. And they like be like emotionally supportive in the middle of the workday. You need a hug. ⁓
Michelle Renee (1:16:05)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Nathan (1:16:09)
And it's such a tall order. And on one hand, it's just sort of like, when you're on the receiving end of somebody frustrated, you're not fulfilling it, it's very easy to be like, yo, this isn't fair, what you're asking of me. But we do it to each other too, right? And so like,
You know, it's a, I don't know what the solution is, but it's, it is a.
Michelle Renee (1:16:32)
For
some people it's to isolate, right? And just say, I'm just not doing this. And I've had my days where I'm like, if this goes south, I'm gonna golden girl it, right? I'm gonna find some girlfriends and we're gonna buy a house together and fuck dating. I will just have sex for pay. Like I don't need it. I can date for pay. Like I can get that dating.
Nathan (1:16:34)
Yeah.
You
Michelle Renee (1:16:58)
itch met and I can pay my bills. You know what I mean? Like, it's real easy to say that. The reality is I don't know what would happen, right? Like, I don't know. I'm going to choose not to worry about it unless that time comes, but it does take a lot of active work. Like, I how many times has he said something that has leveled me?
Nathan (1:16:59)
Yeah, ⁓
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:17:26)
not on purpose. Something has happened that has broke my trust, right? And I said to him, do you know how hard it is to tell yourself you have to figure out how to trust this person again? He is your partner. I don't get to just close up shop and go home. Right. And I remember him saying something to me like he's never had that. The closest he did, he had something the closest that he could.
Nathan (1:17:27)
Yeah, yeah, like not even just.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:17:55)
could
relate to it. And is that just because I'm more sensitive? it because I don't know? Like, have I been through different things in life? Like, one of my colleagues pointed out to me like, maybe he just holds trauma in his body differently than you do. So he responds differently than you do. Like, there's so many components. And you kind of just have to go, I pull up my marriage vows. Like, I have my wedding, you know.
Nathan (1:18:02)
Mm.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:18:23)
Thank God he pushed for a videographer. And I was like, why do we need this? I'm all like, this is more money. This is already stupid expensive. And he was like, no, no, no, we're going to wish we had that. And I tell you, it saves my ass so many times when I'm feeling like, is this fucking worth it? And I go back and I play my vows and I'm like, yeah, I really love this man. Like it will pass. It'll get better. Whatever happened will get scarred over.
Nathan (1:18:28)
Hahaha
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yeah. ⁓
Michelle Renee (1:18:52)
eventually it won't hurt so bad. So it's not for the weak.
Nathan (1:18:53)
Yeah.
Fully.
Michelle Renee (1:18:58)
It's not.
Nathan (1:18:58)
It's interesting what you said about the sort of like the trust component there and how he doesn't feel like he needs that from you on the same level. it's just, I I, I, I experienced that too where like.
the trust component isn't quite as big of a deal for me. And earlier when you talked about like, like, this is my person's like, they're gonna comfort me. I don't necessarily I don't get comfort that way. And there's a trauma component there, I'm sure of like, I, I self soothe, I need to be like, if I'm having a hard time, I need to like, yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah. And I tried to like, do I actually like, you my last show, I did feel
Michelle Renee (1:19:30)
Mm-hmm.
You're like, I'll take care of myself.
Nathan (1:19:43)
more comfortable going to her when I needed it and stuff. A lot of previous relationships, like I said, didn't go well when I did go to them and it might have been the way I was approaching it, which too, which probably wasn't.
Michelle Renee (1:19:56)
But that might be why you also don't try that again, right? You put your finger on the hot stove and you get burned. You don't go back for more.
Nathan (1:19:58)
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, Yeah, totally.
It is like, and this is where I wonder, sort of, and again, like that trust piece, if how much that is a sort of gender component or where that is in our world and stuff too.
The reason I wouldn't necessarily say it was gender, I know like one of the big things, I think one of most important books about masculinity out there is that one by Bell Hooks, like The Will to Change or something like that. And she talks about like just how part of what our culture does and asks of men is to just like disregard yourself from a very young age and disregard your emotions and your needs to conform to masculinity. And I think that's a lot of just a
kind of fundamental trauma that a lot of men have experienced that, you know, sits with all of us. And I think one of those traumas too is that like, you know, that happens like so core and so big so early that the expectation of like trust ever again, is like kind of gone. Because I remember my last partner, one of the things that she said was like,
She, cause towards the end of ours, like she felt like, I don't like trust you anymore. Same sort of way. Like I was going to do something bad, but just like that, that key piece was, was fading. And I remember my internal voice in that moment. It was like, I always have like three internal voices, you know, but part of me was like, Oh man, all right, this isn't good, you know? But another part of me, another voice, my head was like, trust. That's cute.
Like, that's a cute idea. Trust, trust, who trusts? Like, that's adorable. You think you can trust people. And ⁓ yeah, it was, I guess my emotional maturity was enough to point to be like, that's a weird thing to think. But also I was like, but that's true. That's like, that's probably closer to where my core feeling is. And so I wonder, you know,
Michelle Renee (1:21:42)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Nathan (1:22:11)
I haven't had the opportunity to speak this out loud very much, so it is interesting where I'm sitting with this, like 20 degrees out, like, an experience exclusive to me, or is it a gendered experience? Is it something that is a little bit more, you know, do women experience this to some degree too? I'm sure there's I'm sure there's plenty that do, you know?
Michelle Renee (1:22:23)
Yeah.
I think it's a human experience, but I do think our socialization definitely plays a role in it. And I wanna counter like your socialization is that as a woman where I grew up in the Midwest, was like, I was expected to, it was, we talk about guess versus ask culture, right? As a woman, I was expected to guess everything, right? The anticipation and.
Nathan (1:22:34)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:22:59)
And there was a silent contract there that if I provided everything that you needed, I would get fulfilled in return. But that was never actually like, so it's just like, you get this like quiet resentment that builds of like, is somebody gonna step in and take care of my needs? I'm taking care of everybody else's needs, right? So there's these different social contracts that really fuck us all over.
Nathan (1:23:05)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and partly.
Yeah, it was his needs. I there's probably a guess versus ask dynamic of those needs or like the assumption was probably like, I pay the. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:23:32)
You don't ask for things, that's rude. This is like asking the questions.
This goes back to that initial, how we started this, of like my fear of asking questions. It's that same thing. Questions are rude. I remember my first husband, before we were married, he asked my grandmother some really, I thought very personal questions.
Nathan (1:23:40)
Mm-hmm.
same thing. Questions are rude. Yeah, yeah, totally, totally.
Michelle Renee (1:23:58)
He's just trying to get some history on the family, right? And I was like, how dare you? I can't believe you would ask her that stuff. But different time, right? Like, I steeped in it. I remember being so mad that somebody in that side, my mother-in-law had some stuff, and a sister-in-law of mine or something asked for the stuff. And I was so mad because I wanted that stuff, but I would never ask for it.
Nathan (1:23:59)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. was like, dare you? I can't believe you, but...
Totally, totally. Yeah,
Michelle Renee (1:24:27)
And she didn't ask me if I wanted it. And it was just these, God, I was so passive in my communication back then and like how that has changed. And I don't know how I survived for all those years being so I was miserable. mean, I was checked out. I I was so like. Talk about like disconnected from my body and my wants and my my needs like when I went out to my first big public event like
Nathan (1:24:33)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:24:55)
coming out of the height of COVID, I went to like a Renaissance fair. And I noticed I had all this panic hit me. I was trying to hold all these seats in the jousting arena. And I had tried to hold like five seats. And then as people kept coming in, the seats kept, you know, by the time my friends found me, I had my seat and where my hat was sitting next to me. So two seats. And I said, take them, I'm out of here. And I beelined for the gate and I run across my husband and he's like, where are going? I said, I have to get out of here.
Nathan (1:25:08)
Mm.
My friend's on the.
Hahaha
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:25:24)
The minute I crossed the threshold outside of the arena, I just started bawling. And I felt so overwhelmed. And I had a lot of processing that night to do around it. And I was like, have I always felt this way in big groups and I just didn't have any bodily awareness? And I was so used to pushing everything down. And now I can't do that anymore. Like, is that it or is this a post-COVID thing or it doesn't matter?
Nathan (1:25:28)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:25:54)
Ultimately,
it doesn't matter in the space that I'm in right at that moment. It was overwhelming and I needed to get out and I did a good job taking care of myself. You know what I mean? Like that's how you have to look at it. It doesn't who knows why.
Nathan (1:26:00)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, totally. That's you have to look at it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
No, I get it. I get it. I think all of us are a little bit like our social dynamics have all been a little bit scrambled from COVID. So, yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:26:17)
They have.
We want something to blame, or at least I want something to blame. Right. Because I think the thought that I think the thought of of me, the reality of the possibility that I was just pushing all of that down for all those years, there's a lot of grief in that. Right. And so like, ⁓ ultimately, it doesn't matter. And
Nathan (1:26:23)
Right? ⁓
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Michelle Renee (1:26:46)
Moving forward, I will do a better job for myself. Yeah. We are moving so slowly through these, my friends.
Nathan (1:26:50)
Yeah.
We are moving so slowly. I know. It's
fine. I'm okay at time. I mean, got a little bit, you know, I'm not in a big rush or whatever, I don't know. Yeah. mean, how much you're, how much people want to listen to, but what not. okay. Okay. Fine. Perfect. All right. I know I see the counter too. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:26:59)
I'm okay at time.
I don't care, I make this show for me. And I love long format. We're at like an hour and a half right now. Okay.
Okay, there's our level three question reflections. I want this one because I feel like I'm stuck on it.
Nathan (1:27:18)
Okay. Okay.
What actually could
I say let's see I probably should Because wait what's what okay? Oh, we're past like the 90 minutes, so let's let's kind of say like 230 is a wrap point though. Yeah Okay Are we doing the spicy like triple X questions, okay, I Mean, I'm a little bit curious. It's like well, let's see. Let's
Michelle Renee (1:27:37)
Okay, all right, we'll answer one more question. ⁓ I like this one. Okay, we're not doing the spicy one. Do want me to jump to that?
Okay.
Nathan (1:27:51)
Can we do two questions at 15 minutes if we're like deliberate about it? Okay. Okay, here's your question. Okay.
Michelle Renee (1:27:54)
Let's see. Okay, here's your question.
What has this conversation taught you about yourself?
Nathan (1:28:00)
you know, think, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think I'm kind of my internal observation. I don't know that like it's things about myself for much. Well, okay, here's my internal observation is just how fluid we're talking here, which is great. Like I'm enjoying that. And also, yeah, the degree to which I sort of miss this. And I don't have
Michelle Renee (1:28:04)
I expect your dissertation.
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Nathan (1:28:27)
conversations like this as much anymore as I used to. Whereas like this is a big part of my life, especially pre pandemic. And like I was like hosting events that facilitated this and stuff and like I'm not so much anymore. And I'm very like I'm kind of isolated now I spend a lot of time by myself and I don't necessarily have a problem with that but I have had struggles with kind of meeting up with friends not quite as fulfilling as
I want them to be, but then sometimes too, I do meet up with friends and like, like I need to this more often, like kind of get into it. I think what, I think I'm learning something new about myself that I'm being reminded how much I appreciate just kind of having these like deeper conversations and what they mean, because yeah, like it's been an hour and a half. I fly fast.
Michelle Renee (1:29:13)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
I think we could have just had coffee and not recorded it. ⁓
Nathan (1:29:21)
I know. Well, that's
the other part about it too. like, what does it take? Like, does it take like, like having a podcast now to have like a deep conversation with a friend now? Is that like part of it? Okay.
Michelle Renee (1:29:29)
I think the cards, I think the cards help. I just
want, there's a lot of different conversation cards out there. And like, I've brought them in the car with me before. ⁓ My date tonight, like sometimes I bring the cards with us and we go through cards together as a different way to, we talk about different stuff when it's being directed outside of us.
Nathan (1:29:55)
Mmm.
Michelle Renee (1:29:56)
If we're just going to follow our natural conversation, we might talk about all sorts of cool shit. I don't doubt every time we've gotten together, I think it's been a great time. ⁓ But I think having...
Nathan (1:29:59)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:30:06)
the cards push you into different directions that you might not naturally flow into. That's what I like about them. Yeah. What did I learn about myself? ⁓
Nathan (1:30:12)
Yeah, That's true. Yeah, for sure. Okay, interesting.
Michelle Renee (1:30:22)
I don't know that I learned, I like you like a reminder. I do love this stuff. Like I will just be completely transparent coming up to this interview. was like, ⁓ like it always sounds like a good idea. And then I got a context switch and flip into the space. And I know me and Nathan, like we have a fabulous time together. I'm sure this will be great. And that.
Nathan (1:30:28)
Bye.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
This will be great.
Michelle Renee (1:30:49)
That unknown is, it's kind of like when I have a new client, I'm still a little anxious about how's the chemistry gonna be and all that stuff. ⁓ But like, really love, like again, I love long form content. And I really make this for me. And I think of it as like, how cool is it that other people are willing to let me record with them so that other people can be voyeurs in my life kind of thing.
Nathan (1:31:03)
Totally.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm,
good.
Michelle Renee (1:31:18)
And
so confirmation that I do really enjoy this space. Yeah. And now I'm like, ooh, I wonder if people would want to do one on ones of these with me just for their own. They wouldn't want it to be public, but just an exercise. what is it like to be on the other side of it? Hmm. Maybe. I don't know. Maybe we should do events, Nathan. Maybe we should do events.
Nathan (1:31:23)
Yeah, cool.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm, maybe. Is that a thing to add to the mix? I
think about it a lot. It's talked offline about.
Michelle Renee (1:31:48)
I
also hate facilitating group stuff just because all the work that it takes to get the event to actually happen is the shit that I don't like. Yeah.
Nathan (1:31:51)
⁓ yes, that's that's
the hard part is it's a lot like I love doing it, but it's just a lot of work and then you're kind of so busy managing the event. You don't get really enjoy it yourself. You know, yeah. ⁓
Michelle Renee (1:32:06)
Oh no, that's why I won't host a birthday party for myself ever again. I
got really inspired by Arash's birthday picnic thing that he does where he brings all these communities together. And I tried doing it one year and I hated it I didn't get to spend any quality time with anybody there. Like I was like, I'd never do that again.
Nathan (1:32:14)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, well Yeah,
do I do my birthday's the same way I actually sort of like it just like have people there and stuff and like I think it's a nice little pressure thing like in the park but I get it like I don't get to spend as much time with different friends as I would hope
Michelle Renee (1:32:34)
Mm.
I'd rather have
everyone, not everyone, I'd rather have people that want to schedule lunch with me or something. Like I'd rather have the one-on-one.
So, okay, you wanna speed round this triple X version? Okay, I wanna try to do all three. We're gonna speed round it here. There's three levels.
Nathan (1:33:36)
Yeah, fair enough. get it. Yeah, Yeah, let's do a triple X question here. ⁓ okay. Is there like three on a card or something like that or? ⁓
all right. Okay. All right. Well, we'll see.
Michelle Renee (1:33:52)
So.
Okay, quick answer. What is your favorite part of your body?
Nathan (1:33:56)
answer. is your favorite part of your body?
Favorite part of my body? Man, I didn't know that we're gonna go there. Geez. it's so funny. I'm a man. I don't think think about these things the same way. I'm sure other men, maybe other men do. But like, I'm one of those like, men. Yeah, that's true. But I think a lot of men do get detached from their bodies too. It'd be very easy to, it's been like, think about our bodies the same way.
Michelle Renee (1:34:08)
You're just you.
So what's the favorite part
of your body, Nathan?
I like my curves around my hips.
Nathan (1:34:22)
Okay. I mean, probably my head, just be honest. I just, like, my head, my face, you know, it works for me. yeah? Okay, good. Not quite bald yet. Still got some grow on there. Okay, good.
Michelle Renee (1:34:31)
I like bald men, Nathan. I like your baldness. You're bald enough for me. Okay. Does your partner's
sexual history make you scared or curious?
Nathan (1:34:42)
I don't have a partner right now. I'm usually curious. Yeah. I have been scared though, but it's usually even then it's like a mix like half scared half curious or 60 40 or something.
Michelle Renee (1:34:44)
Well, in general.
Me too.
I've never, I should say I've never dated anybody whose sexual history scared me.
Nathan (1:35:01)
Yeah, I actually
have like, I do tend to volunteer too much of like my history to partners in a way that like has made someone comfortable for sure. So yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:35:11)
I am a bragger when it comes to my sexual history and I'm a storyteller. like, and thankfully my partner is totally OK with that. But we ran into
a problem one time. We were at a friend's birthday party and we were meeting her new partner who was not in like the kink or poly any of any of our sex positive world. And my partner's idea of like, hey, nice to meet you is, hey, I've fucked your girlfriend, too. Like.
Nathan (1:35:25)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah Yeah, yeah,
Michelle Renee (1:35:44)
It doesn't fly in vanilla world. Yeah,
so I think it depends on what world you're kind of navigating.
Nathan (1:35:50)
Mm
hmm. There's a specific park in San Diego. I won't say which one. But yeah, I've told like, like it was like 10 years apart, but I've like told like two part had sex with one partner in that park. And then like, you know, five years after that, I was with someone and we were just like, we're in that park. I've had sex in this park. And she didn't like that at all. She was like, what the fuck? Why'd you tell me that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It didn't occur to me like, I thought it was funny. And then
Michelle Renee (1:36:11)
Oh, see that would be a litmus test for me.
Nathan (1:36:19)
I told another partner that and she was, it was like kind of early in the thing and she was like, okay, thanks for sharing. Wasn't quite sure what to do with the information. Maybe it was the way I brought it up too. like, I've had sex in this park.
Michelle Renee (1:36:27)
Good to know.
I walked into Blacks Beach one time from the Torrey Pines with ⁓ my girlfriend, Sara and I've never come. I've only come in that way one time and the whole way down the beach to get down to where we usually hang out. I was getting sex stories the whole way. She's like, I fucked in that nook. I fucked behind those bushes. And I'm just like, I can't track it all anyways. It's like a sexual tour guide. ⁓ I have to. OK.
Nathan (1:36:35)
from 40 times.
I'm like, I can't.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:37:03)
I don't even, I'm in the triple side and I just keep putting cards away. ⁓ What about your sexuality took you the longest to accept if anything?
Nathan (1:37:07)
Okay.
⁓ jeez. Okay. You know?
I I'm not answering the question like perfectly here, but I think something I realized kind of like later in my life that I wish I kind of realized sooner was like, I'm not, for a long time I got in my head that like part of what I was supposed to be doing was just like having sex as much sex as possible with whoever would have sex with me. And I never enjoyed it.
Michelle Renee (1:37:39)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (1:37:43)
And I think I would have preferred just, you know, being more of a relationship person. I wasn't very good. It took me a long time to get good at relationships too. And like, I mean, I didn't really like have my first girlfriend till my like early thirties. So I, that was part of the struggle too, right? But yeah, I went through like a whore phase for a while. And I was like, I really appreciated all the women on one level. And
But I always kind of wanted a little bit more, but also didn't want to give that much more. So.
Michelle Renee (1:38:12)
Yeah.
Yeah,
I think that I think that you you just framed up what I think is the real reason behind a lot of our ED issues. Erectile dysfunction, I think there's a comparison of like, should be able to have sex this very specific way, like, Tinder culture, like I should be able to have very casual sex. And I think a lot of people are not cut out for casual sex.
Nathan (1:38:24)
yeah? What?
Mm. mm, mm. Totally.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. I definitely have like,
to the degree I've had ED issues, it happens predominantly on like first date first encounters. I got like, I didn't get to the point where I was like comfortable like, all right, hey, just so you know, like, I'm not sure what's gonna happen this first time around. And like most women have been cool about it. The funny thing was, like, it almost seemed like saying it sort of
Michelle Renee (1:38:56)
Yeah.
Nathan (1:39:04)
made it not happen also to like, I've never every time I've said it, and that didn't it be a problem? And a couple? Yeah, I know. That's why I wonder also if that's why also, because I'm trying to think like, once I got into the habit of saying it, it's not like that. It's not necessarily a scary thing to say when you think about it. But I think there is a sort of like
Michelle Renee (1:39:07)
Mm.
So you took the pressure off yourself.
It lowers the expectations, I think.
I just, I feel like this has been being like a dead horse that so many women think that their partner's erection ⁓ is a direct relationship to their partner's attraction to them. And it's not. And so like, think saying it ahead of time rather than trying to say it after the fact and like, there's a difference to like getting ahead of it or being reactionary is like, I think that it, I just think it lands differently. Yeah.
Nathan (1:39:31)
Hahaha
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
no, totally. That's funny, because I took me I remember it wasn't that long ago that I realized that like women had that sort of like insecurity from their end about it too, because I was just like, because where my mind went a couple times that you know, when it would happen, it just be like, fuck, I let her down. Like, I she thinks I'm a loser now or whatever I thought. And
Michelle Renee (1:40:17)
Mm-hmm. And she has her
own story going on.
Nathan (1:40:19)
Yeah,
exactly. Exactly. And I think in retrospect, there's definitely like, like one, one such encounter where like, you know, that was where she went. And I just didn't, I couldn't even fathom it at the time. Like, you know,
Michelle Renee (1:40:29)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And then on top of it, if you get the guy that goes, swear this never happens, then that story becomes, it definitely is about me. Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's such a sex, sex is a hard, yeah. Sex is like a hard, weird Olympics. Anyways. ⁓
Nathan (1:40:38)
Hahaha
Yeah, yeah, yeah. geez, interesting. It's just like two weird insecurities.
Yeah,
you know what, can even, wait, I don't wanna like cut you off, but I almost wanna rephrase my, cause it's some, you know what, it's sort of like, it's not necessarily about even like casual sex, now that I think about it. I think it's just sort of like familiarity and like having sex with friends and stuff. When I think about that, wasn't, that was fine and fun. And I think it was like the handful of times where I like.
Michelle Renee (1:40:58)
No, go ahead.
Hmm.
Nathan (1:41:21)
met someone at a bar and like went home with her or something. I was like, this is stupid. Why are we doing this? Neither one of us are going to get what we want out of this other than just to like say it.
Michelle Renee (1:41:31)
Yeah, I think that I'm with you on this. If I was going to answer this question, it's kind of like ⁓ getting past the point of scarcity.
Nathan (1:41:41)
That's a good way to think about it. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:41:44)
is like, there's always going to be another chance or another opportunity or like, and it's okay if there isn't like, it's been really interesting with this person that I've been seeing that had been platonic for a while and now it's shifted is that it was a really cool experiment to hang out with someone in kind of a dating way but not have sex because part of my more recent with like the asexuality and stuff is realizing how much of my sex was like out of
Nathan (1:41:47)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
is realizing.
Michelle Renee (1:42:13)
like compulsory, like I'm supposed to do this thing. Like this is what's expected. And like, maybe it's the going home with someone from the bar or what have you. I did those things consensually. at the time I had, you know, I wanted to explore and see what I liked and all these things. But I also realize a lot of sex that I've had has been, cause I think it's what I'm supposed to do. Right. And so playing in a space of dating someone without sex involved was really good for me just to like, again,
Nathan (1:42:15)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ⁓
Mm-hmm. Yeah,
Michelle Renee (1:42:43)
I'm worth more than my sex. It was a confirmation of that. Like, ⁓ you really don't have to have sex with this person for them to still want to spend time with you, let alone take you out to dinner and do all the dating kind of stuff. That was fun. We did it.
Nathan (1:42:52)
Yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Totally. That's interesting. Yeah, yeah. We
did it. I know, right? It does kind of. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Oh, totally. That was, that was, you know, it's funny though. Like, so I haven't like dated for like the last like three years. I haven't had sex for like, it's been like three years. And so a little bit like, oh, we're not talking about sex. was like, put much thought.
Michelle Renee (1:43:01)
speed run those sex questions. It makes it easier because you don't have to dive in too deep. Maybe you'll come back and we'll dive deep again, but we'll just focus on the sex. I don't know.
Mm-hmm.
Nathan (1:43:23)
to that topic for Harvard Law. Yeah, exactly. What could be on those cards? And so I'm hearing the questions, OK, that wasn't too bad.
Michelle Renee (1:43:24)
You're not familiar.
What is this going to spur in you?
There's a lot
there, like I passed over some that I was like, yeah, no.
Nathan (1:43:35)
Oh really? Okay.
Fair enough.
Michelle Renee (1:43:37)
Yeah, there's plenty that I'm like, yeah, no, or I don't want to think that hard. Like, what was what was like, what was the best orgasm you ever witnessed or something like that? I'm like, I don't want to have to figure that out. Yeah, I figure it's not mine. Evidently. So like, but I don't want to have I can't have the memory things like, but Nathan, it's been a hoot. It's also been incredibly touching and like,
Nathan (1:43:41)
Yeah.
witnessed.
Yeah
Yeah, totally this is great
Michelle Renee (1:44:03)
I like that we've had fun and we've gone deep and I feel like I know you better. So like thank you for getting intimate with me. Where can people find you?
Nathan (1:44:06)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Of course, of course.
Oh yeah,
let's see, my usual social media handle is Nathan Cody Young. So all one word, Nathan Cody Young. And the name of my company is Story Culture Consulting. So if you search for Story Culture on the internet and on professional spaces and Nathan Cody Young everywhere else, you should be able to find me. yeah. Okay, cool, yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:44:35)
Yeah, I'll put it in the notes too.
If people want to look you up, I suggest it. well.
Nathan (1:44:40)
Perfect. Yeah. Instagram
at Nathan Cote Young is probably like the key, the one where I spend the most time.
Michelle Renee (1:44:47)
I find myself putting more, I don't know if energy is the right word, but I give more attention to Instagram if I'm gonna post anywhere, it's probably there, but you know, I also wish I could just get away from social media, but I don't know how to do it. I'm not that strong, doom scrolling at its finest. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, I'll meet you on LinkedIn. No, I'm kidding. Anyways.
Nathan (1:44:55)
and
Yeah.
That too.
I know. I'm not either. We struggle with it. Yes, I know. Perfect. Yeah, right?
Michelle Renee (1:45:16)
It was good to spend time with you. Come back and I hope you have a beautiful rest of your day. Thanks.
Nathan (1:45:18)
Yeah.
Well, you too.
