Traci Thrash: Perimenopause Brain, Pleasure & the Wheel of Consent
Michelle sits down with menopause doula Traci Thrash (The Change Doula) for a wide-ranging, no-filter conversation about perimenopause brain fog, what pleasure actually means outside of sex, the asexual/demisexual spectrum, the Wheel of Consent, autonomy in long-term relationships, and the HRT and lifestyle tools they swear by.
Traci is a menopause doula based outside Madison, Wisconsin. She supports women in perimenopause, menopause, and midlife through 1:1 work and group programs, focusing on connection and community as much as education. Find her at https://www.thechangedoulas.com/.
Michelle Renee (she/her) is a therapeutic intimacy specialist, trained as both a Cuddle Therapist and Surrogate Partner, and a co-owner at https://Cuddlist.com. She practices a trauma-informed, consent-based approach that helps folks of all genders rebuild trust with touch, set clear boundaries, and access authentic pleasure ... at their own pace. She serves clients nationwide as a holistic intimacy coach and partners with therapists to integrate somatic, consent-based healing. Michelle's websites are https://meetmichellerenee.com and https://humanconnectionlab.com and she can be found on social media at https://instagram.com/meetmichellerenee.
Topics covered in today's episode:
What a "menopause doula" actually does
Why community — not just information — is what people are craving in midlife
Redefining "pleasure" and "desire" as words that don't have to mean sex
Soft Cock Week and reframing what counts as a "real" sexual experience
Michelle's story of realizing she's asexual/gray-sexual at 47
Demisexuality, gray-sexual, and "nebulosexual" — labels that helped both of them make sense of their experiences
The Wheel of Consent and why receiving a genuine "no" can be the deepest form of intimacy
Autonomy, relationship anarchy, and not needing total overlap with a partner
The "rope widow" season — staying close while pursuing very different interests
Why empowerment narratives for older women default to sex, and what's missing from that picture
HRT journeys, finding a doctor who actually listens, and favorite midlife self-care finds
Resources & Mentions
Wheel of Consent framework (Betty Martin)
Estrogen Matters — book on HRT and breast cancer risk
The Slow Moon Climbs by Susan P. Mattern — anthropological look at menopause
MIDI Health — telehealth HRT provider
Vulva Balm by Medicine Mama — for labial/vulvar dryness, discovered at the Ishwish women's sexual health conference
Fiber gummies (Metamucil, Miralax-style) for midlife gut health
Dual-zone heated mattress pad — relationship-saving bedroom hack
If you’d like to ask a question for Michelle to answer on an episode, or you’d like to join her for an Intimacy Lab Experience, visit https://intimacylabpodcast.com.
To grab your own set of We’re Not Really Strangers https://amzn.to/47XJjvm
Become a Cuddlist Certified Touch Practitioner and save 10%: https://Cuddlist.com Use code MEETMICHELLERENEE for 10% off
Rough Transcript:
Michelle Renee (00:22)
Welcome back to the what is this the intimacy lab. I almost said the human connection lab. Nope, that's my work. This is my podcast, Michelle. We're gonna talk about perimenopause brain today. So that totally makes sense. everybody hi everybody, I'm Michelle Renee. I'm the host of this podcast. If you're new to listening, welcome if you've been here and you've continued to return. Thank you. Sometimes I feel like I'm a bit much on this podcast.
And if you haven't listened to old episodes, let me just give you a fair warning. I go from anywhere from like really wholesome and lovely to not safe for work. So take care of yourself. If you start listening to an episode and you're like, this isn't for me, then I encourage you to stop it and find something else to do. Anyways, so welcome. I am so excited to talk to Traci today. Traci and I go back to, I think we were just figuring out, we did like a pro.
Wheel of Consent for Professionals in the fall of 2021. And there was a little group of us that really left that that workshop together in a in a energetic together kind of way. And in over the last almost five years, we've all kind of it's fallen apart a little bit.
But we're all still connected. We had this really wonderful five-day workshop experience together. And Traci was like, hey, we should talk about perimenopause. And I was like, my gosh, it's like my favorite topic. I find that it's like the go-to connector conversation. Whenever I meet somebody who seems to be of the age where they would understand when I say, hold I can't think of the word. What is the word? my.
My perimenopause brain is just killing me. it it is like an instant bonder. So it was a no brainer to be like, yeah, Traci, let's come shoot the shit about perimenopause. So Traci, why don't you give them an a introduction of who you are and what you do and where you live in the world.
Traci Thrash (02:21)
Sure. so my name's Traci Thrash and I'm a menopause doula and I practice just outside of Madison, Wisconsin. And usually people are like, menopause doula, what the heck is that? Because I understand what menopause is, I understand what a doula is, but how in the world do those two go together? And so basically what I do is I support women who are in paramenopause and menopause or even just experiencing midlife changes.
Through one-on-one work, but I'm really doing a lot of great group work right now. so I am finding that, like Michelle mentioned, people are really looking for connection and community around these topics, not just the education piece, but the chance to have conversations about the weird stuff that's happening in their bodies, about what they're experiencing.
all the different feelings and just being able to connect and have conversations about it. And so I'm excited to have one of those conversations with Michelle today and find out a little bit about what's happening in our bodies and other other bodies and all the things.
Michelle Renee (03:28)
It's
such an interesting time because like I live I also live in a in a space in life where I don't have kids at home. I do have a partner, but
Traci Thrash (03:37)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (03:40)
He's self-sufficient. I wouldn't pick one that wasn't anymore in my life. I'm not ready to raise an adult child, right? And and so I'm just like getting to dive into these spaces in my life that feel really, really good, which is such a different place than when I was younger. But I'm also going through all these other changes at the same time and how much of it is connected and how much of it isn't. So I'm excited to talk. As usual, I share a ton about my personal life.
Traci Thrash (03:41)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (04:05)
you Traci take care of yourself and share what you want to share. but yeah like there's so many highlights to this time in my life. Just as much as there's these weird moments where I'm like, is this perimenopause? Is this not perimenopause? It feels like the list of potential symptoms just keeps growing and growing. So I'm excited to dive into it. We've also decided because I usually have a theme here around we're not really strangers, I I
Traci Thrash (04:09)
Will do.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (04:34)
broke out I have so many different decks of this game. And so today we're breaking out a new one that I haven't actually looked at yet, but it's the self-reflection deck. And so it'll be a little bit different today. what how this usually works, listeners at home and Traci, is we we pick a card, we answer it, and it usually takes us down some kind of rabbit hole.
Traci Thrash (04:44)
Okay.
Michelle Renee (04:57)
I'm really good at chasing squirrels and whatnot. So, because I also have ADHD. I don't know. We can talk about how many people get diagnosed with ADHD in perimenopause, right? so shall we start with a card and then we'll see where it takes us? And if if we get to a point where I wanna just like insert something or you wanna insert something, don't feel bad. This is where we're starting. Who knows where we finish, right?
Traci Thrash (05:06)
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah, let's go
for it. If you have to rein me back in, just pull me right back in.
Michelle Renee (05:25)
Let's see what we get. I don't like wild cards. Let's pick another one. I don't even know what the wild cards are like in this deck, but I have a rule. Okay.
Ooh, this is a great one. What's become more important to me recently than ever before?
And I will give you as my guest the choice to go first or second.
Traci Thrash (05:42)
I'm I'll go second.
Michelle Renee (05:44)
Okay, wonderful. So
what's become more important to me recently than ever before? I think it's my how do I word this? Maybe I tell a story instead, and then that'll answer the question. Recently I was in Baltimore with my business partner Keeley over at Cuddlist and we held our first like practitioner gathering. So Cuddlist
Practitioners that are in membership. In in the general region, we're offered an invitation to join us in this Airbnb for a couple of days of like content creation and just community connection and things like that. And I talk about my work, and my work isn't always Cuddlist contained. It doesn't always fall under the code of conduct.
My work always starts there, but where we go is like chasing squirrels, right? Like, what do you need? Let's figure out how we can collaborate to give you that experience. So that might look like I do a lot of body image work. So eventually it usually looks like we take our clothes off together to whatever extent my client is comfortable in in where their edge is. And that might change over the course of an hour. It might change over the course of weeks, right? And so
I I just love the the transformation that can happen around like just being with another naked body and realizing that we're all quote unquote normal. You know what I mean? Like it's all different. We're all different. That's what's normal is the difference, right? And and so I taught I love talking about my work. And there was this question she posed this question to me about like, do you ever think that in a Cuddlist practitioner spaces, especially with new practitioners?
Traci Thrash (07:08)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (07:23)
that it's confusing or overwhelming to hear about some of my work. I also work with a lot of like assault, like childhood sexual assault survivors, things like that. And I said, I don't know, but if you if I'm not getting paid to be in that space, I'm not holding back what I talk about. And I think that's the thing that has been more important to me than ever is to be able to show up
and say whatever the fuck I want to say. I don't enjoy the some might call it masking or whatnot. I'm I'm really just in I'm I'm really able to point that if I'm not being paid to mask, I'm not doing it. And so that's my answer.
Traci Thrash (07:52)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. I love that. And I think I think having that really clear line of and again it kind of ties back to the wheel of consent, right? Who's it for? If they're paying you, then it's for them and you're receiving compensation. If they're not paying you, right, and you're willing. but if they're not, then you're there for yourself and you're going to show up in the way that's best for yourself. So I
Michelle Renee (08:22)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
And I might be willing.
Traci Thrash (08:35)
I love that. And yes, five years later I still constantly pull wheel of consent, like the the framework into things all the time. I think for me right now, because of the transition that I've been in to doing this doula work full time, and it's just me. So collaboration has become this precious commodity.
that I honestly I think I took for granted. I think it's always something that's been important, but I may have taken it more for granted that I had other people around me to bounce ideas off of, to help me flesh things out, to vent to and all of those things. Whereas now I I have a circle and I have people, but it's also in this work that I'm doing, I'm kind of alone in it.
And so those moments of collaboration when I'm working with other people, the networks that I have, those are so rich and important and precious to me. And and I'm frankly always looking for more opportunities to have collaboration on things because it is it is newer for me to feel a little bit more like I'm doing my own thing. And it's super empowering to feel like what I'm building is my own, but it's also
It has its challenges. So whenever I'm getting to work with other people and collaborate, that is that's really big for me. And I think it's just helping me rem realize and solidify how important community is too, which is part of what I'm trying to bring to the work is building communities and helping people build their own communities. So yeah, that's my answer.
Michelle Renee (10:20)
Well,
my my response to those kinds of general I'm looking for things is always and and I it happens really easy for me and I I I wanna acknowledge that it's an easy thing for me and it's not an easy thing for everyone else, but I'm always like, well, if you can't find it, build it. Right. I've built so many different communities over the course of the last I guess everything in my life is like pre.
First divorce, not first divorce, pre like pre-divorce from the first marriage, post post that time. That's my my line in the sand. And my brain immediately goes to, well, I mean, I have this intimacy prose group that I would love to have you be a part of, where you would get some support, maybe not directly in the menopause world, but certainly we are a group of people that are also very aw aware and working in in the
Traci Thrash (10:52)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (11:12)
outskirts maybe of your world. And I would definitely welcome you in there. And also like I would love to help you if you want to build that more specifically. I would be happy to be a support for you.
Traci Thrash (11:23)
Yeah, I would love that. And and I I very much look at the work I'm doing as like a whole person support kind of work. So I mean, so to me, like the intimacy professionals, we may all be coming from different angles of how we're supporting people, but to me it's all the same kind of work, just a different entry point, maybe. because
Michelle Renee (11:41)
Uh-huh.
Yeah. You know what you always
see, you know what you also see in the intimacy world? Not just, you know, the the the talking about sex and talking about, let's say, menopause, a lot let a lot of crossover with like death dualis, right? There's just something about this is a very intimate time of our life. And in how we get to touch it with different people.
Traci Thrash (11:51)
Mm.
Yeah.
Yes.
Michelle Renee (12:14)
It's more alike than it's not. There's grief that is involved in all of those spaces.
Traci Thrash (12:19)
Absolutely.
And it's they're both transitions, right? I mean, well, and the other tie-in that I've been trying to figure out, we're gonna workshop this for a second, how to tie in because I I am such a a pleasure based person in like how I approach my life. Like I have to find the way it feels good to be able to do something on repeat, right?
Michelle Renee (12:23)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Traci Thrash (12:48)
And for me, that does not, I don't see that as like a proclamation about sex. That's not sexual. That's just, I mean, it's just pleasure. And like, yes, that that may also, sex may be a little piece but like before we got on this call, I walked outside and felt the sunshine on my skin and felt the breeze to ground myself and just and experienced that pleasure. But I'm finding that most people.
Michelle Renee (12:55)
Mm mm. It's just pleasure. Yeah.
Traci Thrash (13:17)
When you say pleasure, the first place they go is sex. And I, while I'm happy to talk about sex, I don't want people's first to think that that's all I'm bringing is this is how to have sex in menopause. Because that's not the conversation I'm trying to have. And so I've I think it's kind of sad, but I've actually taken
Michelle Renee (13:21)
Sex, yeah.
Uh-huh.
Mm-hmm.
Traci Thrash (13:40)
the word pleasure and I've tried to just like give more descriptions of the kinds of things that I'm talking about because pleasure is such a I don't want to say trigger because it's not even necessarily a bad thing, but it's such a loaded word for people.
Michelle Renee (13:57)
It it it's that it's the fact that it's so heavily tied to sexual pleasure. And and in a society with so much compulsory sex, right? Like we are expected to have sex. I remember, and I I think I've said this on this ep on this podcast before. I remember back when I was coming out of my first marriage, I was infatuated with Betty Dotson.
Traci Thrash (14:02)
Right. Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (14:23)
And I had this, I had this story about women of a, you know, at a certain point in their life, if they just kept if they just set their mind to it, they don't have to lose the sexual component of their life. Like it was a judgment. And wow, do I have so much face palm kind of
Traci Thrash (14:38)
Right.
Michelle Renee (14:44)
I was I was feeding into that narrative that it is the only right way to go through life. And boy, have I had my own reckoning with that and my own experience. Have I I it is for me, it has been a choice to decide to keep sex alive for me, but I can so see where it would be so so hard to also make the choice to not.
Traci Thrash (14:50)
Right. Mm-hmm.
Right.
Michelle Renee (15:10)
Like it it goes both ways. It is a choice that everybody should get to make, and it's not there's no wrong choice.
Traci Thrash (15:15)
Yeah.
Right. Yeah. And I think it's interesting that so many people tie the idea of like postmenopausal life because our our reproductive years are behind us, that that somehow means we won't necessarily have a sex life. And so that it's something that you have to to force if you want to keep that. And that it's just a given that it's something that we'll lose.
Michelle Renee (15:43)
Or that you're
bad if you let it go.
Traci Thrash (15:45)
that
you're bad if you let it go. Yeah. If you don't we're all supposed to cling to youth and all the things, which I don't want to be in my twenties or thirties again. Like I I don't want to go back there. So it's funny that in some ways society tells us that's where we need to stay when most of us don't want to be there again.
Michelle Renee (15:59)
Yeah.
And
at the same time, my 40s were great. And I remember turning 40, my 40th birthday. I had a couple of birthday parties. one of them I hosted like a like this is your life. And I did a progressive party that went through all the parties I had thrown that year. And I had a great house that had plenty of room and parking and all the things that I don't have in Southern California. And I had this party that started with like a regular birthday party, progressed in a like cuddle party.
Traci Thrash (16:14)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (16:34)
Second base party, a kink party, and a sex party at the end of the night, right? And people were like, What are you gonna do for your 50th, Michelle? You must have massive plans. And I was like, I just wanna like spend some quality time with my kids. Like it was just like this interesting flow back, but at the same time, I did turn 50 and then that's it switched for me. And I'm gonna share with you because we haven't caught up around this, but
Traci Thrash (16:51)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (17:02)
I, you know, I think around 47-ish, 46-47, I s learned about asexuality. And I realized that I don't actually experience sexual attraction, which then puts me in the category of asexuality. And and I I do enjoy sex. It's just, I say it's a long distance between where my partner shows up aroused and full of desire.
Distance from that starting point to getting me to desire is a very long road. And it is a cost that I don't always want to pay the toll for, right? It's an investment, right? And so sex had gotten kind of and it just wasn't important. And I also my mom died at 50. So coming up to this 50th birthday was I was excited to get to the other side of it. I was excited to get
Traci Thrash (17:36)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (17:51)
past what my mom got to have, right? So there was, it wasn't like a doom and gloom. It was a, now I get to be on extra time kind of situation. And I think there was something really heavy that I wasn't aware of in the in the lead up to that that was affecting my desire for sex. Because I hit 50 and a few things happened. I think I let go of the the heaviness
Traci Thrash (17:53)
Right.
Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (18:17)
I think it's much lighter to be on the other side and there was space for for my for my desire for sex to show up. but also I had a a new lover. That's always an extra fun bit, right? and then I ended with another new lover. Right. Like there was this other, like I thankfully have an open, open relationship, and that's not a problem in my world. but it was nice to have that infusion of of
Traci Thrash (18:23)
Yeah.
The boost. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (18:45)
new, but also still having really good sex with my partner at home. So I have the consistency. It's like my Audi HD. I need to, I need to have cons something really stable and predictable, but also something really exciting. And like it, I get to, to navigate both of those and they're so different. But like also a massive desire for all the all all the the contact in my life to be incredibly slow.
Traci Thrash (18:50)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (19:12)
sex sex sexual contact, friend contact, like all these things to be like really rich and deep and slow.
Traci Thrash (19:12)
Mm.
Yes, yes.
Michelle Renee (19:20)
So so
then it's more it's more interesting to engage in sex, but it's not can it's not it's not I don't have somebody that's in my showing up at my house on a weekly basis. It's not scheduled, it's very like it's it's almost like I live in a perpetual world of like comets that just come in every once in a while. And it's a treat, so it's still got the newness to it, because it doesn't happen often enough. And and and I'll add,
Traci Thrash (19:23)
Yeah.
Yeah. Right.
Michelle Renee (19:49)
A little testosterone didn't help my desire, but it did keep my clitoris from feeling like I like it was numbed out. So, like these all these things came together. Started ADHD meds. Did that have an effect? Like, there was just a whole cornucopia of things that came in around the same time that I can say I feel like sex feels as good to me now as it did at 40. Which
Traci Thrash (19:56)
Mm, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Right. Yeah.
awesome.
Michelle Renee (20:16)
wasn't like that for a lot of years. And so I'm like I feel like I'm forty again. So I'm not I don't
Traci Thrash (20:16)
Yeah. But there was a yeah.
Michelle Renee (20:20)
I don't mind going back to forty. I don't wanna go back to twenty or thirty. No.
Traci Thrash (20:22)
Yeah. No. Yeah.
Well, and I love and I hadn't I hadn't really thought of slowing things down as being something that was coming up through like midlife and menopause, but I've very much been in that place too. in part because right now I I do have control over slowing down. Like I have I have more agency over my whole life than I ever had.
Michelle Renee (20:43)
Mm.
Traci Thrash (20:47)
so I can take my time to experience and enjoy things and to do them slowly, to see how things grow on their own, what comes, like have the curiosity to just let something build. And and I think that that is something that maybe, maybe we actually do. I've never felt like I've gotten more patience as I've gotten older, but maybe in some ways I have that I'm no longer in a rush to things and can let them
evolve and and be. So I love that you mentioned the how going in with slowness and intention changed the experience and brought the richness back to it. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (21:27)
Yeah, you know, we were
in our pre-conversation for this, you brought up soft cock week. And and and you brought it up for different reasons than than I'm I'm thinking about it. But I remember my big push on soft cock week was like, let's just secretly get all this straight men to like queer their sex, right? And like take make penetration not the the the end goal, you know.
Traci Thrash (21:33)
Yeah. Yeah.
Right.
Michelle Renee (21:53)
epitome of of what sex is. And like I had a I had an experience recently where I will say it was a peak sexual experience. And I've and I don't keep track of those much because I feel like I've had a lot of really good sex in my life. But to walk away from it and go, wow, that was a peak sexual experience. There was no penetration involved. There was a penis, it was a penis owner that that was that I was with. But there was
Traci Thrash (21:56)
Yeah.
Okay. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (22:20)
Zero penetration. It was mostly energetic. It was very primally. And it was I like, wow. Talk about like an in I don't I don't ex I don't think I really experienced an an intimacy hangover from it, but it was intensely intimate. Intensely intimate and slow and it
Traci Thrash (22:24)
Yeah.
Mm.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (22:48)
I just roll my eyes thinking about it now. It was so good. It was so good. And I'm like, this I didn't I didn't think this. I thought things were kind of on the way out when I was going through a period leading up to my 50th, right? Where I was like, okay, I get it, ladies. Maybe I'm there with you. Maybe I just don't really care if if I had a new lover or
sex showed up differently in my life. Maybe this is it. And then I got a client that comes in and goes, Yeah, my therapist is calling this my 2020 sex instead of 2026. And I went, I'm stealing that. This is my 2020 sex.
Traci Thrash (23:21)
But don't you think that that's sort of that thing where when you stop looking for it, when you stop trying to make it happen, when it's when it's allowed to evolve and just be with no pressure on it, because you're not you were not looking for your peak sexual experience, right? You were just showing up to whatever is. And when we can show up open like that, we actually very often, I mean, sometimes you get a flop, right? And then you walk away and you go, huh.
Michelle Renee (23:35)
yeah.
Not at all.
Traci Thrash (23:50)
But sometimes you have a more amazing thing than you ever could have put together, right? Okay. Yes.
Michelle Renee (23:55)
Let me make it more interesting to you as a wheel of consent person.
This is also a colleague of mine. And I have his per I said, I have her permission to talk about this, right? Because I don't have good sex and not tell people. So I'm just gonna start putting that into my like like like the opening like sexual health conversation is like, just let me know if you want me to leave your name out of it, but trust me, I will be talking about it if it's good, right?
Traci Thrash (24:03)
Mm-hmm.
Right. I will talk about this.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (24:22)
And this is a colleague that I've known for years, but we never met in person until I think it was October of last year, right around my birthday. And I hadn't played with a colleague in a really long time. Like I just wasn't so interested in pursuing extra partners and all that kind of stuff. And I just invited this person over to cuddle when I was in his city. I was like, hey, do you want to? We've never actually met, but I would love to cuddle with you.
Traci Thrash (24:39)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (24:48)
And he was like, Yeah, I'll totally, I'm a total yes to that. But in my head, I was like, I wonder if we'll hook up, you know. And and they're a massage therapist and a sexological body worker. And so I he comes in, I'm like, let's let's just go cuddle because like this is what you're here for. Let's jump in bed and start cuddling, even though I've never met him in person before. It's like you know how it is when you've known somebody online for years and
Traci Thrash (24:55)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (25:15)
We cuddled for a little bit and then I said, like, how would you feel about like some hand to genital contacts? That's that's literally the words I asked. And he goes, hmm, let me think about it. So he takes that sacred pause as we learned at like a pro, right? And he goes, I would be a yes if I can be in the tape.
Traci Thrash (25:25)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Michelle Renee (25:36)
And I went, listeners at home, that means if I can touch you for my pleasure. And I went, yes, that sounds delightful. And I get goosebumps right now thinking about having someone take sexual touch for me is this like so good. Which is so funny.
Traci Thrash (25:49)
Yeah.
And the clarity around
it to say it beforehand, yeah, is so hot, right? So hot.
Michelle Renee (25:58)
So hot. And I was like,
right, you have the same language I have. so not only do you have amazing attunement because of your work as a body worker, like he could just literally run his hand over my knee and go, did you have an injury there? And I'm like, my God, you don't even know me. Yeah, I blew my ACL out there in high school. You know what I mean? Like there's just such a body awareness. And in in in and that was like our first experience together. It's been
Traci Thrash (26:02)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yep.
Michelle Renee (26:27)
Together a few times with them since then. It was the last time that it was just peak moment. But it was, it was just so good to be with somebody that I didn't have to teach to that knows the language around Wheel of Consent. And and I think that's important for us as practitioners to get our own, like to have our own experiences where we're not having to.
Traci Thrash (26:37)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right.
Michelle Renee (26:49)
teach or or or hold the space or you know what I mean, just have our own needs taken care of. it was it was just it was really delightful that he understood that. And then I and I thought about it later and I haven't asked him this yet. And I since I'm putting it here on the podcast, I should probably have this conversation with him. But I don't know what it's like to come into a sexual space with me. As somebody who's been in the field of teaching around sex for
Traci Thrash (26:55)
Yeah.
right.
Michelle Renee (27:16)
over 10 years, right? What is it like to engage with meat? How much nerves come up in that? How much self-consciousness around quote unquote skills, right? And and I thought about it later. And whether this is what he was doing or not, I just want to share it with the audience because I think it's brilliant. By saying that the touch was for him, there was no
Expectation that it was about giving me an orgasm. Right? It was just he got to explore. Right. So I I'm just imagining as an as another professional in the space, god, what if I'm actually what if I don't actually like what is it, what if this isn't fireworks and shit, right?
Traci Thrash (27:47)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (28:00)
And and I think it took all the pressure off of that. And I thought, God, what a great thing to do with a new partner is to be like, hey, I want to, I want to touch you, but I want to touch you for me. And then if it turns out really good, which in this case it was, I feel bad for the housekeeping because it was really good. it was such a whether it was on purpose or not, I think it's a tip.
Traci Thrash (28:11)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (28:27)
I think it's a tip for like how to take the pressure off is to be really clear who the touch is for and have it be for you. The person like the person that like not the person you're touching, but have it as as the person doing the touching, have that touch before you, then all the pressure is off.
Traci Thrash (28:27)
Yeah.
I I think it's absolutely a tip. And that's something that I've experienced too. Although I I haven't ever been that clear with the language about it, but I've noticed that when you explore someone else's body with with your hands, when it's just for the sake of like, I want to feel what what does this feel like if I squeeze it like this? What is it like? What do what's my experience of this body? And just coming in with curiosity about.
like their body and exploring it that that kind of desire I think I can't speak for men, but I think women a lot of times haven't experienced that. Having someone who just wants to like explore their body and feel it and take it all in instead of it just being like, let's get to the act. And I love the fact that y'all never even got to, you know, the P and V.
Michelle Renee (29:38)
We still haven't.
We we've hooked up three times now. We've never had penetration.
Traci Thrash (29:39)
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I wanna tie that story back to the soft cock conversation and why that came up with us beforehand, because one of the things around menopause, when I was first doing my training, there was all over social media these posts about your genitals changing when you go through menopause.
Michelle Renee (29:51)
Uh-huh.
Traci Thrash (30:08)
And there was a lot of like fear and terror and all of this stuff happening. And I think your story to me ties in so well with like where my mind went because I started thinking about Softcock Week and all the information that you had shared and the conversations that you got happening to get people thinking about like that sex doesn't have to just look one way. And like we can experience pleasure and all of these things and have
Pinnacle sexual experiences, even without it being the the script that we've always learned. And so, you know, maybe maybe you have some testosterone on board, or maybe you have an estrogen cream that you use so that you aren't having atrophy of your of your genitals. But yeah, the tissue's not shrinking or anything. But
Michelle Renee (30:55)
Mm-hmm. Tissue. Yeah.
Traci Thrash (31:02)
Maybe also if that is happening a little bit, maybe that's a signal that you slow down and that you visit sex in a different way and that you bring desire in. Maybe it means that you say, Why don't we just take my body below the belt out of the equation? And I'm going to, I'm going to take, I'm going to explore for my own pleasure. And maybe this is this time of life could be an opportunity for you to explore.
things in different ways that you haven't ever needed to. So like sometimes those when we take something out of the equation, it actually can make it all more lovely.
Michelle Renee (31:42)
Yeah. I think it's like what does it mean to have sex is so limited for most people. And then I think about it is it is still sex, even when both people maybe aren't mutually engaging in the same way. Like I think about I don't know if this is a phrase that's still used, but a stone stone butch or stone lesbian, right? That I don't know if that's even a
Traci Thrash (31:58)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (32:08)
I don't even know if that's even appropriate terminology anymore because I have not kept up. But I learned it to mean back in the day was that somebody wasn't was was not a receiver. It was always one direction. And that's still sex. It's still sex and it's totally okay.
Traci Thrash (32:24)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
It's funny when when I started having sex with women, I there was a lot to learn. And I didn't have language for everything, but I one of the things I experienced was that there is a lot more this person's receiving, this person's giving, this person's receiving, and the other's giving moments than maybe I had had in like straight sex.
And so I had to come up with language for that for myself, but it was also new. So I used to say, like, I'll make sex at you and you make sex at me. Because like I needed a word for that. Because yes, we are having sex, but like before I knew about give and take and all of those things, like I needed a word for like who's the doer, who's the and yeah, and there's there are
Michelle Renee (33:11)
Mm-hmm.
Traci Thrash (33:16)
so many more ways than even just sex. Intimacy doesn't all just have to be in our pants. There's so much more to that.
Michelle Renee (33:25)
I'm really a firm believer. I know we have to use the word intimacy as a cover for for sex in so many ways because of the way that censorship works and whatever. Outside of that, the I you know
Traci Thrash (33:36)
Right.
Michelle Renee (33:39)
intimacy to me for me for me what I know about myself and and this is and this is I think a lesson or maybe it's a a a conversation for people to go maybe that's what I need to think about. I remember being in a long distance relationship with Paul and back then when I would come into town we used we met in the kink scene. So like for us kink was a oftentimes part of our play not always
Traci Thrash (33:50)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (34:04)
but I remember back in those days because I wasn't seeing him enough when I would be with him. It was like I had to fill my my like regular sex bucket before I could bring kink on top of it. Like I needed that bucket filled before I could even make the space in my head to think about kink. And where I'm at now, because as as one of my my colleagues stayed with me recently, and he goes, Wow, you and Paul are really autonomous.
Traci Thrash (34:16)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (34:31)
And I said, yeah, we are so differentiated, right? We don't, we are very much about we're together because we like each other and we have the shared values and things like that. But our overlap of hobbies is not there, right? And and and I remember him, you know, cuddled up with me in bed recently. And I hadn't spent time with him in quite some time. He had he had gone to a convention for five days. He came home with Concrud. I
Traci Thrash (34:43)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (35:00)
quarantine myself because I had a client coming in from out of town the next weekend and there was no way I could reschedule it. I did not need to be sick. So it was very, we were very separated for a couple of weeks. And when we got back together, he he crawl in bed. I literally that night I came home from that client and was like, I get to sleep in my own bed tonight. And I got in bed to watch TV and he came in and and cuddled up with me. And and I
Traci Thrash (35:10)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (35:23)
I got this sense that he was trying to like progress things in a sexy way. And I just said, Babe, my connection bucket isn't filled enough to get to the sex bucket. Right. It's the intimacy is not filled enough to get to the sex intimacy. And and I think that it's it's something for people to think about of what is the recipe? And you can't just always jump off.
Traci Thrash (35:34)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
Michelle Renee (35:50)
For some, the distance is what makes it hotter and they can access eroticism more because there is more space. And it's just figuring out know thyself, what do you need?
Traci Thrash (35:57)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. And do you think that that's a part because I've I've been curious about like the asexual spectrum is incorporates a lot. And like I identify as demisexual, which is part of the asexual spectrum. But I wonder if you think that that that need for the intimacy to to get you to that point, do you think of that as part of your asexuality?
Michelle Renee (36:09)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Traci Thrash (36:27)
Or is that just Michelle's special sauce? Right. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (36:31)
I don't know 'cause I only know my experience, you know,
and
There's times where I'm like, is it just demisexuality? Is it would I call myself gray? I I like to use gray sexual sometimes because it makes people go, what's that mean? Which I love that question of what does that mean for you? Right. it yeah.
Traci Thrash (36:44)
Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, tell us what that means. Cause I was actually, I'm
in a book club, and we're reading a book called The 57 Bus, and there's a section in it where they go through definitions of different genders and sexualities, and gray sexual is one. And some of the people in the book club were like, I had never heard of that. And we actually had a pretty
Michelle Renee (37:02)
Mm-hmm.
Traci Thrash (37:08)
a medium sized discussion about like asexuality and gray gray sexual and those things. And I don't know that I gave it justice. So just in case any of my friends listen to this podcast, do you wanna
Michelle Renee (37:17)
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I can only speak for what it what is how do how would I define it for myself, right? And I think that is the biggest thing is I want people to learn how to figure out like what is what is sexuality to them? How do they work? What is their owner's manual? And and for me, what I okay, so if we back it up to like I understand I'm in the ace asexual world, right? Because when I and this is what it took for me to figure this out, when I think about meeting a new person.
Traci Thrash (37:23)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (37:50)
What do I want from like what is my brain go to of like ooh, like it when I say a new person, a person that I feel drawn to? When I meet someone I feel drawn to, what is the first thoughts that cross my mind about what do I want with this person? Where would I like this to go? It is never a sexual thought. It is usually about intimacy of some sort, right? It's I'm a sensual attraction person. I want
Traci Thrash (37:57)
Yeah, right.
Yeah. Right.
Michelle Renee (38:18)
To cuddle with them and get to know them and have deep conversation and have all this really rich intimacy. If those things are there, sex might be an activity that we could do together because I like that form of connecting. But that's not that's not the experience I have. Now it's getting really complicated with my friend Alex because he's a gay man.
Traci Thrash (38:25)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
That's not the thing you're hoping for. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (38:46)
We're incredibly close and I'm really struggling with pulling apart the I love you. Why aren't we having sex piece that I had to pull apart years ago when I had a partner that we discovered was phrase sexual, which is a whole nother one of those asexual words that nobody knows what it means. And it's the opposite of demi, where the connection piece is a piece that takes them out of sexual attraction. So it's like.
Traci Thrash (39:06)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Right.
Michelle Renee (39:13)
We
all have these interesting ways that we're wired. And you as a demisexual, I shouldn't say you, you can define how that works for you, but generally it means that you need a lot of connection to find yourself with sexual attraction. So do I have a tra a sexual attraction? I'm not really sure, but I know that I do like sex being part of my connection with some people. And it's not a a must have.
Traci Thrash (39:39)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (39:40)
And and I really enjoy the sex I have with them, but it's not to me, it doesn't fall under sexual attraction as a definition, but it it might be for other people. So that's why I say gray might be the right phrasing for me because I do feel drawn to have sex with certain people. But it's just it's just a an activity that works well for that connection. I don't know, it's complicated.
Traci Thrash (39:57)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
That makes a lot of sense. And I'll say I think
Labels are a really helpful thing to get us recognizing that something's an option. And then as soon as you've realized, I can be in this sphere, I can this, then really the label becomes less useful. And it's just something that opened a door for you to explore. But then what exactly that means becomes way more important than whatever the label is. So I know
Michelle Renee (40:34)
Yeah.
Traci Thrash (40:34)
Learning about demisexual for me was a huge like, I'm not broken. I'm not weird because I I don't go to a bar and go, I would have sex with that one, that one, and that one. Like, I've never had that experience that I'm walking down the street and I'm like, attraction to a total stranger. I'm like, ooh, stranger. Why would I why would I get naked with them? That I yeah.
Michelle Renee (40:50)
Uh-huh.
Yeah. Where I can say I've done all of it.
I I I do think I had sexual attraction one time, and it's in retrospect because it was it was an experience where I walked into a kink party and and I love bald men. I'm very attracted to bald men, as in drawn to them. not necessarily sexually attractive, but I am drawn to them. I find them aesthetically very pleasing. And there was a a naked bald man at this kink party.
Traci Thrash (41:09)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (41:24)
I shit you not with his dick on a leash. And I in my head went, my God, I'm going home with him tonight. And it was uncomfortable. And I've done so many one night stands. But the difference was this, it it felt different. And I it scared me. I literally, a friend asked me if I wanted to get out of there and go shoot pool. And I was like, yes. Like
Traci Thrash (41:35)
Mm.
Michelle Renee (41:47)
Лик, а кант бинс фелін.
Traci Thrash (41:50)
So I have a question about that, if you don't mind. In in your other experiences, had you been had you ever been the pursuer? Was it a shift in that you would in this situation you would have been the pursuer? You were the one that was like that would have been
Michelle Renee (41:52)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
I
I'm a pretty assertive. I was, you know, I am very sexually confident. I I had no issue pursuing people. And in those other spaces, I think some some of it was compulsory sexuality came into play. Of like, of course, this is what you do, right? I was also in this phase of coming out of this.
Traci Thrash (42:20)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (42:28)
21-year relationship where there was a little bit of ethical and unethical non-monogamy that happened occasionally through that that 21-year relationship. I was very much in my Michelle is tasting the buffet to figure out what she likes. I had a lot of meh sex, right? It was never I didn't know what I didn't know. So I I wasn't, it wasn't like I was looking for sexual attraction. I didn't know that I didn't have sexual attraction.
Traci Thrash (42:44)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (42:56)
If that makes any sense. Like I didn't know that I didn't see pictures in my mind until my husband came in and said, if I say red truck, what do you see? And I'm like, I see the words. Right? Like he like it's it you don't know what you don't know. So it wasn't that I it it wasn't that I I thought I'd be changing my role of like pursuing somebody and not used to that. It was literally.
Traci Thrash (42:58)
It does.
Right.
No.
Okay.
Michelle Renee (43:23)
In retrospect, I mean I can I could pinpoint it was 2015. I know exactly when this thing happened, right? And and it was only in retrospect that I went, I think that was sexual attraction, and that's why it felt so weird. But then everything else starts to make sense because then I'm like, and everybody asks me like, what's your orientation? I go, I don't know. I'm just not straight. That was literally my answer all the time. I don't know, but I'm not straight. And I think back to like, I always this is it's always a regular story of like watching Miss America.
Traci Thrash (43:34)
Yeah.
Mm. Yeah.
Mm.
Michelle Renee (43:53)
And I knew what I knew what shape I loved. I knew that that person didn't have enough hips. You know what I mean? Like, so I was, I was, I was finding them aesthetically pleasing of certain, but I wouldn't call it sexual attraction. And so in retrospect, you go, this all makes so much sense now of why my orientation has always felt so nebulous or not clear to me.
Traci Thrash (43:58)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, and I I love hearing your story because I think for me there was a lot of having to figure it out too. And I think so often when we hear people tell their stories, there's there is a lot of clarity and it's really clear and they know like, this isn't for me and that's what's for me. And I think that there's also it's also a really valid experience, right? To like for it to not make sense and to be well into adulthood and have had
Michelle Renee (44:29)
It's like clear. Yeah.
Traci Thrash (44:45)
Plenty of sex and for the sex to have been, it doesn't mean the sex was bad. It doesn't mean that, you know, all of these things that I think sometimes can get assigned to, well, if you had had really good, then you would have known, or if if somebody said whatever, do you would have figured it out? No, it's sometimes it's really complicated and it takes a long time to piece it together.
Michelle Renee (45:02)
Yeah.
Do you identify as neurodivergent at all?
Traci Thrash (45:13)
I I'm not normal is usually what I I I have a lot of neurodivergent people in my life. And yeah, which is a sign. And there's there's definitely something different about the way my brain works, but it's a it's a topic we have around here a good bit. And I'm not yeah.
Michelle Renee (45:20)
So that's probably a a sign. Yeah.
Well, I bring yeah, I bring it up
because I saw on Instagram one day a post about another new another new label, right? And I I love labels and I hate labels, but I do think they help me understand that what I'm experiencing might be part of this, right? And it was a phrase called nebula nebulosexual or something like that. And it was the idea that as a neurodivergent person that I don't know if I'm experiencing sexual attraction.
Traci Thrash (45:59)
Mm, mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (46:00)
And that
resonated with me of like, you don't know what you don't know, and it's not clear to me. And I and I sit with that around aromanticism, also, is that I always ask this question, what does romantic mean? Right. And I'm and and what I asked, I asked, I don't even want to say her name, the the the little listening device in my room right now, what that meant one day. And they used the word they use romantic in the definition. I'm like, that doesn't work. I can't. So
Traci Thrash (46:02)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Michelle Renee (46:28)
I will say this. I found a definition that I think works for me. And I'm curious how you feel about this. And so it says, what does it mean to be romantic? Being romantic is about expressing love and dedication in a way that's intentional, unmistakable, and deeply affectionate. It often involves dramatic or passionate gestures through those small actions that indicate
Traci Thrash (46:36)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (46:54)
Yeah, those small actions that indicate enduring affection can also be romantic. And I'm like, well then I'm just romantic with all my friends. Those are all romantic relationships for me.
Traci Thrash (47:02)
Yeah. You have a lot of Yeah.
And I find it confusing the distinction between romantic and Platonic. Don't you think there can be platonic romantic?
Michelle Renee (47:10)
Mm-hmm. Well, it depends on
are you trying to say romantic as in sexual? Do you know what I mean? Some people will say, is it a romantic relationship or a platonic relationship? And I'm like, wait, I love the phr I love the queer, queer platonic relationship idea. And that doesn't even mean that it's not sexual. It can be. It's just queer. It's just queering of the of the relationship, right? And so
Traci Thrash (47:15)
No, like yeah.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (47:35)
I love it and I hate it.
Traci Thrash (47:35)
Yeah. Yeah.
And I think it's the same thing we were talking about before that so romantic means sex, pleasure means sex, intimacy means sex, attraction, like I like means sex. It can't just mean like I feel like I'm attracted to so many people. I'm I think you were using the phrase drawn to, to like
Michelle Renee (47:46)
Intimacy means sex.
Mean sex.
Mm-hmm.
Traci Thrash (48:00)
divorce it from the sexual like because it can be more than sex. But all of these things are experiences that we can have outside of the sexual realm. And but as soon as we start using that language, that's where people's minds go is that it's it's about sex. And not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's not always about sex.
Michelle Renee (48:02)
Mm-hmm.
I think
think
it requires you being open to the idea of of like
letting go of the norms or the rules. Because I also think when people hear about how I think about Polly and all these things, because I don't really identify as Polly. Although I'm feeling more I'm yeah, I'm feeling more like I don't want to I I don't I think I'm averse to the term because it comes with a an idea of what it means. And so a lot of people will be like, you sound more like relationship anarchists. And I was like, yeah, I mean, I think I think what I how I live my entire life is like
Traci Thrash (48:36)
I remember that. I didn't know if it was still the case.
Michelle Renee (48:56)
I don't really adhere to rules. And maybe it's my built-in persistent demand avoidance. I don't know. But like I I just why can't I? Like, if I was gonna be Polly, I say like my first partner outside of my husband would be Alex. Well, a gay man and a not gay woman, I mean, I I'm queer, but like I don't fall under any of these interesting categories. We can't date, can we?
Traci Thrash (49:23)
Right.
Right.
Michelle Renee (49:25)
Yeah, I
mean, I have strong love for him and like he's one of my favorite plus ones. Like I it in you know, it's just an interesting thing to like go, Well, what if those rules just didn't matter?
Traci Thrash (49:31)
Yeah.
Right. What if what if we could have those experiences? And why why does it all have to be tied together? I mean, I think it it keeps things simple, but do we want simple lives? Do we want our relationships to be like that easy to define is the number one?
Michelle Renee (49:54)
Simple, yeah,
simple doesn't work for me and my pleasure. My big pleasure, all the pleasures in the world. I heard another thing the other day that somebody said in the intimacy prose group, and and we have confidentiality. So I'm not gonna go into any like sp specific details, but think the overall story is totally worth sharing. Is the idea that they were they they're like talking to a friend about how
Traci Thrash (49:59)
Right. Right.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (50:21)
When they they think about friends, they have their movie friend, they have their romance book friend, they have their go out to try new restaurants friend, they have their and and they're like, normal people don't do that. And when I say normal, I mean like typical, neurotypical people. And I'm like, well, there's another thing I didn't realize was part of that's totally how my brain works.
Traci Thrash (50:39)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (50:47)
Which is where I think Polly probably would fit in that space really well of not needing all your needs met by one person and like I I'm just I'm just I'm I'm anti all the rules and all the I'm I love labels and I'm anti labels and I yeah.
Traci Thrash (50:54)
Person. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. I think having I think it's having language for things is really helpful. But then when the the label box becomes restrictive, I think that's when you're like, no, you know, and and yeah, I think I think poly can mean so many different things and it can it can look so many different ways, but you also have to be
Michelle Renee (51:09)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Traci Thrash (51:28)
I think you have to be willing to get in the messiness of exploring and discussing. You have to be willing to have those like really pick it apart and be like, okay, but this line here, are we talking yes or no? Like, and this thing, and you have to to really get into those nuances, you have to be willing to kind of muck around in it with somebody and say, like, okay, so attraction.
Michelle Renee (51:35)
Discussing.
Mm-hmm.
Traci Thrash (51:54)
If it doesn't just mean I would have penis and vagina sex with them, what does it mean? Can you describe that? Can you say what it feels like? Can you say what you would and wouldn't do because of that?
Michelle Renee (52:00)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and can
and can you have it as a discussion where they also get to have feelings about maybe the fact that they're not aligned or I think I think this goes back to where like as I have more secure attachment to myself, what the other person expects or needs or wants is is less concerning to me.
Traci Thrash (52:15)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (52:28)
Like
I can hear it, but I don't necessarily have to change or take it on as mine. And I I don't know. I the I think just all the benefits of for me it's been tied to my age, but I think it's just also tied to the life experiences I've gotten to have being in a more supportive relationship.
Traci Thrash (52:33)
Yeah.
Yeah. And I think I think it does all overlap. I think it's a little bit our age and experience, really. I think more than age, it's experience. You've experienced a lot of different relationships, a lot of a lot of different things that you've learned from. 'cause I mean, certainly plenty of people are our age who who have it figured right.
Michelle Renee (53:04)
Mm-hmm.
Who haven't. They haven't gotten the chance to. I mean,
if you
I I go back to Gawa Mate often. And in his thing about, you know, we're born with two needs. We have a need for survival, which requires us to keep the attachment with our primary caregiver. And and we have a need for authenticity in our expression. And we give up our authenticity to keep that relationship so we can stay alive. And then we forget as we age and we become self-reliant that we actually can have our authenticity. And it's so
Traci Thrash (53:14)
Yeah.
Right.
Michelle Renee (53:41)
I think it's so tied to depression and all these other things. And that would be what I've learned from him. I just I I think because I have been given the space to kind of bloom. My bloom happened in my forties. Right. And and some people are raised in a very different family environment or
Traci Thrash (53:45)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (54:06)
you know, relationship environment comes earlier where they're given the the permission or the space, the encouragement to sh to figure out who they really are. And I just got it later.
Traci Thrash (54:19)
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, and I feel like some people get it even later than you. It might come in their 50s because I do think that there's a piece to for some of us, still being in our reproductive years ties us to this societal messaging. Yeah. And that our that our purpose is reproducing, you know, and and when we're still in that place. And for some people.
Michelle Renee (54:36)
Responsibilities.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Traci Thrash (54:46)
That doesn't get set down until they're beyond those years. And then they finally say, and maybe they're now in an empty nest. The kids have left the house or their job has changed and it's no longer pulling from them constantly. Like there's a lot of things that kind of soften in this in this time frame. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (55:04)
De sta it's destabilizing to
really dis like ask like the question that comes up in my office is what do you want? That's a huge question and it's so potentially really destabilizing. It's risky.
Traci Thrash (55:13)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah. Yeah. I I had an experience with someone one time. the first time being intimate with them, and I said casually, I didn't think much about it, but I said, What do you want? This was before Wheel of Consent and that I understood like how layered that question can be. And they went into like full panic attack at being asked the question because yeah, just just slowing down enough to know what we want.
Is is new territory for a lot of people. And I think that this stage of life, if you haven't already dug into that and looked and you know connected with your body to notice what the signals are for when you do and don't want things, explored what an enthusiastic yes looks like versus a I could do that. Like I'm willing to do it, but I'm not excited by it. And
All of those layers, I think that this is a time that a lot of people are starting to realize they can say no, they have choice, they have agency, and all of those those things. And it's it all comes up right during this paramenopause-menopause phase. And then everybody wants to know which one is it? Like, is this just is this midlife? Is this aging? Is it menopause? Is it, and it's like it's what's happening to you.
Michelle Renee (57:20)
Mm-hmm.
We used to call it I don't hear this phrase much anymore. Maybe it's just my circles, but I mean it used to be the midlife crisis. Whether no matter what gender you are, right? It it may show up differently. It may you may walk through it gracefully or not gracefully or right. But like I think there comes a time where or you have an event in your life where you're faced with your mortality, or like there's just so much there.
Traci Thrash (57:36)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Right. Yeah.
I think we don't see it. I hope that it's in part because we don't see it as a crisis anymore. It's like it's like the next layer. It's like it's almost like a level up. I hope is the way we're seeing it. And maybe we don't use the phrase as much because it's it's I think it is an unraveling, but it's like an untangling instead of a falling apart, maybe.
Michelle Renee (57:55)
Yeah.
Mm.
Maybe.
Yeah,
I think it depends on your life situation. Cause I'm just thinking about like the the midlife affair where you're yeah, you're looking to feel some I think there's it's a really great way to feel really alive. It's a terrible way, I should say, to feel really alive because it's non consensual. But I w you know, I just did like a pro for the second time in Chicago in April and
Traci Thrash (58:18)
That's true.
Yeah, the sports car.
Yeah. Yeah.
Right.
Michelle Renee (58:42)
This so I did it initially we talked about this. We did it together back in 21. And I got to sit in a from a place of I've been doing the practice really consistently with clients and stuff for the last five years. And so I I was curious what I would hold on to coming into this. Like what would be the meaty things that I really attach myself to? And this time it was attaching myself to wanting. And and I don't remember if we did this in our cohort or not, but.
Traci Thrash (58:45)
Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (59:09)
One of the early exercises we did was to go around the room and we had to state something we wanted. And everybody in the room would say, in unison, we want that for you too.
Traci Thrash (59:22)
Mm, I don't remember doing that well.
Michelle Renee (59:23)
And and
and it was a practice in naming our wants, but also with the you know, the lesson around like it's good to want, and it doesn't mean we're going to get. Right. But even but just being in the practice of being able to check in with yourself and name some wants. And I thought I've worked with clients and trying to get them, not everyone picks up on it, and I don't always bring it up, but like.
Traci Thrash (59:28)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Right. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (59:50)
The five minute journal where it's like your gratitude journal where you just name a few things that you would you're grateful for that day. And I'm like, I want to do a wanting practice. And so I came home from that. I posted something on Facebook about it. And do you know Kat Calagas? she's in Minneapolis, so she's kind of close to you, and maybe you should know each other. But I think she's trained in Somatica and I'm not sure what else. But she was a Cuddlist.
Traci Thrash (59:56)
Yeah.
yeah.
I don't think so.
Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Michelle Renee (1:00:16)
years ago. That's how we first got to know each other. And she saw my post about it and she said, I want to do a wanting, a wanting practice. And so we have a WhatsApp where the two of us send each other not we're not consistently every day. We go in spurts. I'm really bad at setting new habits. but we just I I will come up with three things I want most days. Some of them are things that I n I know I can make happen that day. And some of them are just
Traci Thrash (1:00:23)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:00:44)
big wants that I just want to put out in the universe to like welcome it into my life. And it's just good to it's just a good practice. And I think it it takes a little bit of being in a space of abundance versus scarcity. I think like for some people they're going to be like, why would I want to want things that I can't have? But I just think getting in the practice of checking in with yourself of what do I want and where can I meet that for myself.
Traci Thrash (1:00:49)
Yeah.
Yes.
Right.
Yeah. Yeah. Well
Yeah, and I think like you said, sometimes you have clients that struggle. Sometimes people struggle to to name wants and to be specific about it. So just practicing that. It also made me think of another word that everybody thinks is sex but isn't sex, which is desire. Like, you know, what do you desire? And when we try to have that conversation, then people are like, you're trying to like make this a sexy thing. Right.
Michelle Renee (1:01:30)
Mm-hmm.
You must be talking about orgasms.
Traci Thrash (1:01:41)
And it's like, no, we can desire. We can have like I can desire a glass of ice water and I can desire to go for a walk. And like there's there's all sorts of things that I desire that are outside of sexual connection. And I feel like I'm coming off as very not interested in sex right now. And it's not that, it's just that sex is just a piece of all of these things. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:02:03)
It's not, it's just a piece. I can
I can I can get pleasure from a really yummy sexual experience. I can get pleasure. You my gosh, I have a video of me so stinking happy. I sent to some of my friends on Marco Polo one time of my excitement of driving into the desert right at sunrise. Like, like that is
Traci Thrash (1:02:09)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:02:28)
is ecstatic pleasure, right? That is orgasms for my eyeballs. Right? I get the same rush of like excitement in my body at the idea of going into the desert for sunrises. Like, that's like just as much as I want to see, you know, this lover or it's it's it's a really strong want.
Traci Thrash (1:02:31)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right. Yeah. Right.
Michelle Renee (1:02:53)
And it feels good
to want. Even just thinking about it gives me a lot of pleasure, even if I'm not there.
Traci Thrash (1:03:00)
Yeah, the excitement of it and the anticipation and all those things that that come with desire. Yeah.
Hmm. I I guess to go to continue on the theme that I've been having of saying it's more than just sex. I the other thing I have been really aware of and noticing, especially in the space around like menopause and women aging and like the Gen X getting older conversation is
Around empowerment, and something that I noticed is that a lot of times when we start having conversations around as you're getting older, how to still feel empowered and how to feel ownership of your body. And
Very often that conversation also turns to sex. Like, get boudoir pictures done so that you remember you're still hot. Like, do do this thing, like you take a lover so you can feel young again. You do these things. And I'm like, what does it look like to be a richly like engaged, middle-aged, post-menopausal woman aside from sex?
Like if you desire a active sex life, like that's fantastic and that is available to you. But also, like, can we picture something that is centered around other parts of your life? Like, do we have models for that? Like, can I think of other than Jane Goodall, can I name, can I name like an older woman who is vital and alive and passionate?
that that I don't then also think of like Helen Mirrin sexy, right? Like but but is that the only kind of way that we can age?
Michelle Renee (1:04:48)
Yeah it's like it's like the idea of like please compliment me on my brain. Please compliment me on something other than my physical appearance. Not because you can't be sexy later in life, but because we're whole people.
Traci Thrash (1:04:53)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah. I I tried to search on Instagram and I don't remember anymore what the search phrase was that I used, but I was trying to find pictures of like older women who were like empowered and all this. And Michelle, I ended up in this world of AI slop of silver-haired women with giant boobs and like
Michelle Renee (1:05:06)
Yeah.
Traci Thrash (1:05:32)
Kardashian bodies with this silver white hair and no wrinkles and like this weird thing that I was like, okay, that is that is not it, but that's what the AI or whoever created the page or whatever thought that that empowered older women would look like. And I was like.
Michelle Renee (1:05:53)
That's the
you know, I think about how AI works. That that was the first whatever they scoured the internet for to make their compilation, right, of like what what was the AI visibility on that. I I was at a I was at a potluck a while back and I I love using like so like bringing up menopause as a conversation starter whenever.
Traci Thrash (1:06:01)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:06:20)
people that I think could possibly be experiencing it. And I remember being like, well, let's talk about perimenopause and a local practitioner here who's very well known in the Tantra world here, she said something like
Traci Thrash (1:06:24)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:06:38)
I'm just really loving my work right now. Like, I want to work all the time. And I'm like, my gosh, thank you for like saying that out loud because that is what I want to do too. It's like where my passion is, my special interest if as as an autistic person. Like, and there's this like idea that we should be more than our work, but like for for some of us that are lucky enough that our work is our
Traci Thrash (1:06:48)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:07:02)
is is our life force right now. Like I think it's such a great, a great time that that is the thing I want to be complimented on is like my my passion for my work and or maybe understanding that this was you know I came out of being a stay at home mom with really no I didn't have a degree. I had education in a few different spaces, but like my this is my fairy tale.
Traci Thrash (1:07:04)
Right. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:07:27)
of what I'm doing right now. That's
what I want to see more people talking about is how they've like whatever it not even doesn't have to be work. Whatever it is that they're they're they're harnessing that thing that lights them up and yeah.
Traci Thrash (1:07:40)
That lights them up. That's what I was gonna say.
Do you have a thing that lights you up? And do you do you lean towards it? Do you do you let yourself experience it? That's right, right? Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:07:49)
That aren't your children. I I used
to say this about the being in the dating world is like, what is your passion that's not your children?
Traci Thrash (1:07:55)
Mm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. But it's back to that wanting thing. It's funny because there's a lot of people that shy away from saying they feel passionate about something. There's a there's a shaming and an embarrassing an embarrassment around being super into something. And like I think we're coming or we've come to where it's like changed a lot. So that geeking out on something is like a positive.
you know, thing. But I think yeah, it's something that we haven't necessarily we didn't grow up in a time when being your own individual self was celebrated. conformity was the way.
Michelle Renee (1:08:26)
Yeah.
No, we there's
The modeling that we have in media, I I've said this a million times. If I love watching reality dating shows, that is my guilty pleasure. Part of it, I think, might be that I love learning, seeing how people walk through the world, even in even in reality TV that isn't so reality, right? It's just fascinating to me. And how many times have I heard a woman
Traci Thrash (1:08:44)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:09:08)
specifically a woman, described as being selfless as a positive character trait.
Traci Thrash (1:09:14)
Right. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:09:15)
And I'm
like, I want to do an intervention. You know what I mean? Like, there's just that's I want to see more modeling of of compassionate boundaried. Cause I think those two go together so well when it's done right. Without you can be a helper, God bless you. But if you're a helper that hasn't hasn't figured out some boundaries, then you're
Traci Thrash (1:09:21)
Yeah.
Yeah. They do. Mm-hmm.
Right.
Michelle Renee (1:09:40)
you're not really helping I then I then I s then I start to question who is it for? Right? If do back to the wheel of consent language. If if if if if you're not clear with what your limits are, then I I really I really question who it's for.
Traci Thrash (1:09:45)
Yep, that's
Yep.
No right.
Yeah. Yeah. And going back to what you were saying earlier about the experience with your colleague, when you do interact with somebody who takes that sacred pause, like even if it's not in a any in any sort of setting, but when you ask someone if they want to engage in something and they actually stop for a second and you see them think about it, like I really do think that that
Creates so much more safety for me, at least, because I know that you're actually willing to think about whether you want it and that you are willing to express to me that it's not for you or that it is for you. I may be sitting there really hoping that you're gonna say yes, but but it's not an auto response. And I know that you trust me enough to be able to hold your no. Like, and that's
Michelle Renee (1:10:28)
Mm-hmm.
And then it's not
But it's not a auto response.
Mm.
Traci Thrash (1:10:52)
That's something that I think it's one of the reasons that the Wheel of Consent resonated with me so much is because that was a piece that I had always kind of inherently thought was like when somebody's willing to tell you no, that's that's huge. That's that's intimacy. That's a person to keep around because they're not just doing whatever they need to do to keep you around. They're actually willing to to say no. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:11:06)
Mm. That's intimacy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I want you as a whole person. In my first
marriage, and I can't remember what kind of overlap we had when we first met. I know you you were married before to a man, correct? Yeah. And I don't know if I don't remember if you experienced this, but I had so much coercion in my relationship because my first husband could not hear no. No is not really an option, so I never really got to have a yes.
Traci Thrash (1:11:27)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Right. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:11:43)
Right. And so
to me, that is the most intimate, trusting, compliment that I can receive as a no. If that if you if we can make the leap between receiving a no to being a compliment.
Traci Thrash (1:11:49)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Absolutely. Yeah. Because it it means that you're willing to be fully in the experience with me of of the exchange we're having. Because if you're willing to acknowledge your no, then you're I feel like that means you're here with me, with your whole self. And that whole self includes not wanting to do things. And you know, yeah, I
Michelle Renee (1:12:04)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
We want the real overlap, not the fake overlap, like the Venn diagram. We want it to be in and I guess maybe that's another thing I see for myself in the I hate to limit it to non-monogamy, but just as a grown-ass adult that gets to make my own decisions and and not needing to have everything overlap with my my husband, my primary partner, is that we don't have to be a yes.
Traci Thrash (1:12:23)
Right. Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:12:47)
to still go do the thing we want to do. And I think I just heard Esther Perell talking about this. And so I think in her in her space, she was referring to in monogamous relationships, this idea that we think our partner has to do everything with us or we can't do it.
Traci Thrash (1:12:47)
Right. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And I've for a long time at least been very confused by that approach because do you know who's the worst person to do something with is somebody who doesn't want to be there. Right. Like if I
Michelle Renee (1:13:13)
The person that doesn't want to do it. Right. So then it
the opposite of that though, I think Esther was hitting on was then they just don't do it at all. And that's not living your life.
Traci Thrash (1:13:22)
Right. Yeah. No.
Yeah. Yeah. And that's that's something that my wife has learned and it's something that we worked on several times. Because if if I say will you come to me, come with me to this thing, she will almost always say yes because like she she wants to do what
the the things together and everything. You know, she wants to be supportive and helpful. And so I've had to really say, like, I I'm gonna go see this group of friends. I always love when you join me to things, but I also know that I'm gonna be with my group of friends. There won't be a lot there for you. We're gonna tell all the inside jokes. We're gonna be talking about stuff that doesn't interest you. We're going to like be
Acting like 12 year olds because we have all these like old stupid things that we say. And like I don't want to be thinking about whether you're enjoying that or not. I I just want to be in there being stupid. And you're welcome to come, but like, but I won't, I won't take care of you. Or I'll do the same and say, like, I'm I don't need you to take care of me. I went with her to a
Michelle Renee (1:14:22)
Mm-hmm.
Traci Thrash (1:14:39)
funeral, a family funeral. And I like very clearly said beforehand, like I'm gonna be there to support you, but you don't need to worry about taking care of me in this family setting, you know, that's not on you at all. and yeah, yeah, it really is. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:14:51)
Yeah.
Yeah. It's so much more kind. It's more kind. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I I I I have the I've a I've a a a mixed thing on this. I love that I trust my husband to say no when he doesn't really want to do something. And and at the same time I found myself the other day, I didn't even ask him because I knew he'd say no. And but
Traci Thrash (1:15:09)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:15:19)
I always I have my backup, right? I got Alex and Alex is always a yes. And we were joking about the fact that our partners are very similar and the fact that they just really don't want to do the thing that we want to do because it's just not their interest. And maybe me and Alex's special interest overlap more because we're both in the intimacy world. So we look at these invitations to events from a lens of like this is work related, of course we wanna go. And his thing is like, you invite me to something, I'm going.
Traci Thrash (1:15:40)
Mm.
Right.
Michelle Renee (1:15:46)
'Cause I know we're gonna have a great time together where and and it's just nice to have that it's not all the pressure is not on my partner to be that plus one because I I d somet I just I need an anchor person sometimes. Like I especially if I'm going into a space where I don't know most of the people, I become a wallflower and and it's not comfortable for me. And if I have my anchor person, it's a very different experience for me. And I love that I have that person that really wants to go as more of an adventure.
Traci Thrash (1:15:48)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:16:15)
And and that I can trust that my husband is not i is is not gonna go to something that he doesn't actually really wanna go to.
Traci Thrash (1:16:23)
Yeah. I I've been curious about something recently too, and I'm curious where you land on this because it's not something that I've really talked with anybody else about, but it's kind of like the next layer to this, which is so say Paul wanted to go to something, but he wanted to have the experience alone and it was something you were interested in. Are are you able to say, I'm really disappointed that I can't go? And can he say, like,
Michelle Renee (1:16:30)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Traci Thrash (1:16:50)
Like, yeah, I'm sorry it disappoints you, but still like still do the thing alone.
Michelle Renee (1:16:54)
Yeah.
I can't say we've had that actual experience come up, but there has been definitely a conversation. My my husband loves to hang out with the furry population. He's not a furry, but he loves so this that's his convention of choice. There was a time when me and Keeley were talking. I wonder if we could booth at a furry convention. I wonder if they would be a potential clientele. I don't know. It was just a conversation. And so me and me and
Traci Thrash (1:16:59)
Yeah.
Okay. Yeah.
I would think so. It seems like a crossover.
Michelle Renee (1:17:23)
Me and Paul talked about what would it look like if I came to a furry convention. And in the end, we decided, like mutually came to the decision that that's really his space. And and I don't think it's worth it to me to to need to go. You know what I mean? And at the same time, fast forward, he says to me the other day, When are you ever gonna come to a convention with me? And I was like,
Traci Thrash (1:17:27)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:17:48)
Dude, I'm totally good. I kind of like it when you're gone. I get the whole house to myself and I I I live differently when you're not here. And and and he goes, Well, I just I talk about you so much with my friends and they'd like to meet you. And I'm like, okay. Well then I'm a yes to going when it's close. So once coming up in the LA area, I don't remember when he said it was. I am a yes to going if I don't have to participate in the whole con.
Traci Thrash (1:17:55)
Yeah.
yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
I was gonna say not the whole convention. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:18:18)
I don't even
need a ticket to the convention. I can just join y'all for a meal or something. So maybe I even come up just for the day 'cause it's just LA. I can just drive up and drive back. Or if you really want me there it like for the whole weekend, maybe I just use it as like a little work retreat for myself in the hotel room or I I literally just do what I love.
Traci Thrash (1:18:25)
Yeah, yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:18:37)
Doing and watch reality TV from bed the whole time. Maybe I bring a friend with me and we hang out and watch reality TV the whole time. I don't know, but like I'm willing to do it because it's really important to you. I think that's the conversation is like, can we honor each other's autonomy and preferences and just say, like, how important? Like, I don't want to go back to Michigan at Christmas because it's cold. It's gross.
Traci Thrash (1:18:44)
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:19:04)
And I know it's really important to you that I'm around your family every once in a while and most of your family is there at Christmas. So I will do that, but I'm only gonna do it every other year. Right. We get to have really negotiated conversations. So in that space, I have abundance in my life. There's no reason I have to be in that space. I'm sure there's another way I can do whatever that thing is. And we have our own separate communities for that or whatever. Yeah.
Traci Thrash (1:19:13)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think it so the way I'm hearing you describe it, it comes back to the to the negotiation of it, right? Of well, I'm not willing to do all the way that, but what is it exactly that you're even looking for? And then you find out, it's not that you want to walk through the convention holding my hand. It's that you want me to meet your friends. Okay, how do we meet that need? but
Michelle Renee (1:19:54)
Mm-hmm. Because
I mean, it's such a lovely I mean, it's not it's such a lovely thing he wants. Right? Like, I don't I I I it is funny, we do we're so autonomous. I remember bringing him to the ASEC convention or ASAC conference in 2023. I was speaking, so I I that was the reason I was there. And I had a room for like five days. And he goes, You have a room in San Francisco for five days? I want to come with you just so I can.
Traci Thrash (1:20:00)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:20:21)
bum around San Francisco for five days. And I was like, great. And he he got to interact with some of my colleagues. It was very strange. I was getting text messages from people going, I'm in a, I'm in a, I'm in an Uber with your your boyfriend right now. he's really cool. And I was like, gosh, I hope he represents well. You know what I mean? Like he was he was integrating into my life without me even being there. And and it was so funny because at that point we'd been together for eight years, something like that.
Traci Thrash (1:20:23)
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:20:50)
yeah, because we'll be it'll be eleven this year. Eight years and most of my colleagues had never met him before. Like even local ones, right? And so he was just finding the local people and they're like, Hey, your husband or not husband at that time, but your your boyfriend's really cool. You know, like it was just so it it's interesting because we just don't overlap our lives a ton.
Traci Thrash (1:20:55)
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's so cute.
Yeah. Yeah. I love, I love though too, I know I first met you, I guess halfway through where you are now in your relationship. And having watched that evolve and hear your stories, yeah, and having watched how you've evolved since then and all the things that you've built and not just built, but like reconfigured, reassessed, re
Michelle Renee (1:21:24)
Mm-hmm.
It's evolved.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Traci Thrash (1:21:43)
come back to things, like walk away from things and then come back. Like find what serves you, find what lights you up, be willing to change your mind. Like all those things are so, especially right now, while I'm in this place of like trying to figure out my own. It's so I don't want to use the word inspiring, but I'm gonna say inspiring. to see someone else who has been willing to be.
Michelle Renee (1:22:05)
I'll take it.
Traci Thrash (1:22:10)
in the messiness of growing and willing to just kind of navigate it all as it comes and keep reassessing and redeciding and moving to the next thing that feels good that gives you pleasure right like it's it's cool.
Michelle Renee (1:22:27)
There's a
there's a lot of questioning of like why do I think this is the way it's supposed to be or needs to be when really that's not what works for us. Right? and it comes with hurt sometimes. Like I I'll give an example. We just had a messy we had a Michelle lost her shit the other day.
Traci Thrash (1:22:35)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:22:47)
My my husband's super involved in this new rope community project happening here in San Diego. And he's then I feel like I'm like you I remember I lived in Michigan. There was like the deer hunter widow that, you know, hit deer hunting season, you never saw your husband again. I'm in this widow season where they're there, yeah, I I don't enjoy rope. So I don't even this isn't even an overlap with us anymore and it used to be.
Traci Thrash (1:22:58)
right. Yeah. Yeah.
The rope widows. I love it.
Michelle Renee (1:23:12)
But I don't enjoy it anymore. And so I'm not involved. And he has taken up the the mantle of like helping them build out a new space. And he's literally every night after work, he is gone. And it was a holiday weekend. I thought I was gonna be super busy and my friend didn't make it into town, so I had a lot of of free time. And he goes, Just just a reminder, I'm gonna be working all day, Sunday and Monday at the space. And I said, Okay, well
Traci Thrash (1:23:25)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:23:40)
In my head all day, when it you're starting at like ten in the morning, it's like six or something like that. And it's after nine. I haven't heard a peep from him all day. He hasn't checked. I think I sent him a picture of a a drill bit I found on the floor just to make sure he wasn't looking for it. You know, he didn't even look at that. He's completely narrow focused solely on that. And I had a whole bunch of anxiety come up at the end of the day. you know, I'm
Traci Thrash (1:23:46)
huh.
Mm-hmm. Wow, mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:24:07)
I'm not immune to having really, really dark thoughts. And I was like, God, I haven't heard from all day. I hope he didn't get in an accident. I hope that like it just I went to all the terrible places, right? Which just dysregulated me. And so, you know, a couple of not answered phone calls and and what have you. I made a joke to Alex about, you know, I'm just sitting here wondering if my husband died.
Traci Thrash (1:24:17)
Yeah, right.
Michelle Renee (1:24:31)
and he calls me to to assure me that if he had, the police would have come and notified me. and then to distract me, because we were both working on closet projects together, together but in separate houses. we made three trips to IKEA together. and so he just distracted me by showing me what he was working on in his closet. It was really lovely of him. And and Paul tried to call me during that and I just didn't answer because now I'm pissed and and I'm not giving you my attention and la.
Traci Thrash (1:24:37)
Thanks, Alex.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:24:58)
And and and there's a part of me that's like he thought that he had made it clear that he was gonna be out of touch all day. And I thought there's some level of checking and see if your wife needs anything sometime during the day that should be expected. Unlike at when you're at a con, I don't expect that and what have you. Anyways, it was a it was a misalignment of expectations. And
Traci Thrash (1:24:59)
Right.
Right.
Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:25:23)
Why do I expect that? I don't know. I'm I I constantly battle with my expectations versus who is the authentic Paul.
Traci Thrash (1:25:34)
Right. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:25:36)
He was raised in a very different environment than I was. He has a very different nervous system than I have. And what do I really need? You know, it's it's an interesting wanting him to be able to be his authentic self and also I'd kind of like you to be a little bit more considerate. And it it just it it is all it's it's 10 years of navigating our differences and figuring out.
Traci Thrash (1:25:40)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:26:01)
And and part of that is my my secure attachment to self has really, really greatly improved in that ten years. And that's what I think I noticed the most is made it easier to navigate that.
Traci Thrash (1:26:08)
Yeah.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think my my wife has a lot of capacity for letting me be upset or disappointed or whatever. She knows that it it will it will pass and that if she doesn't fight it, it will pass sooner. And I've noticed how much having that space for
Michelle Renee (1:26:26)
It will pass. Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Traci Thrash (1:26:37)
We've been together for seven or eight years now. That amount of time being with somebody that I know will let me have my feelings and that won't try to change my feelings about a thing and whether it was disappointing has really let me then not have those big feelings as often. Like I don't feel the need to fight for
Michelle Renee (1:26:56)
Mm-hmm.
Traci Thrash (1:26:59)
those things as much. I still do sometimes though. And I mean I still get disappointed or I still get frustrated. And I'm much more now because it's slower able to say, I think I said to her yesterday, she said, I know I'm being really frustrating. And I was like, you aren't being frustrated. I'm just at a very low tolerance level for anything right now. And my tolerance level is low and you're existing and then I'm frustrated in your direction, but you're actually not doing anything wrong.
Michelle Renee (1:27:22)
Mm-hmm.
Traci Thrash (1:27:27)
And but it's taken a lot of patience on her part for me to be able to be in that place where I can be generous even when I'm frustrated, because took a lot of years of a lot of patience on her part.
Michelle Renee (1:27:38)
Yeah.
You being
generous when you're frustrated, but also there's just a there's a lot of grace involved, right? Because I also think about the the hormonal effects of the time that we're in right now. I remember my my so I want to share some of our favorites. This is this is gonna be a transition into what are you some of your favorite resources, products, whatever, because as I have a whole wrap-up here, but I I I ended up
Traci Thrash (1:27:47)
Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:28:07)
to get the majority of all of my really all of my perimetopausal care, the HRT part of it at least, ha I've been very fortunate that I was directed towards MIDI, this the telehealth service. And they've been really, really really great to me. I've heard some people have critiques of them. My experience has been nothing but positive. And we have I have a joke about like
Traci Thrash (1:28:18)
Mm.
Michelle Renee (1:28:30)
She she checks in with me, you know, at the beginning of of our telehealth session and she says, Well, how how have your moods been? And I say, Well, I mean, I've still got insufferable feminist rage. And she goes, Yeah, I don't think your estrogen I don't think estrogen's gonna help that, right? Like we we are able to joke about these things, but it is true in that that does play a part in our reactivity in different ways, but also we get to have our feelings and having a partner that understands that they're not in charge of our feelings.
Traci Thrash (1:28:42)
But
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:29:00)
They are ours, they're in our domain, as we like to say, and and that's not my job to control the other person's feelings.
Traci Thrash (1:29:08)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, okay. Hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:29:10)
Yeah, so the other things I love. I'll get my list done. My favorite book has
been Estrogen Matters. I've for somebody whose mother died in 2002 of breast cancer, there was a lot of fear that I carried around hormone replacement therapy. And that was the book that made me let that go. MIDI is my other one, and then
Traci Thrash (1:29:18)
okay. Yep. I'm looking for my favorite book.
Mm-hmm. of est-huff.
Uh-huh.
Michelle Renee (1:29:37)
I accidentally ran into these this Medicine Mama people at the ISSWSH conference, which is a women's sexual health conference. And I didn't I never I'm like, I I don't have vaginal dryness, so I'm fine. at least at this point. but I noticed I have labia dryness, like dry skin on my labia, and I was like, this is wild. Why can't I feel my labia right now?
Traci Thrash (1:29:41)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Yeah, right. Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (1:30:06)
And I'm
like, there I looked, I looked at them and I went, they look dry. Like maybe it is time to pull this vulva balm out and and s lather it up. And then I and then the noticing was gone. So that clearly meant that that was the thing I was noticing, right? So those are my like favorites right now that I can think of, other than the just the fact that I'm on every form of HRT that I think is out there. Like I have a version of systemic estrogen and localized vaginal estrogen, and I have my
Traci Thrash (1:30:21)
Yes.
Michelle Renee (1:30:35)
oral progesterone and I have my testosterone cream. I think I'm fully covered. so and I love all of it. What are your what are your go-tos, Traci?
Traci Thrash (1:30:40)
You have all the hormones. Yeah.
Yeah, so you mentioned MIDI Health, which I know a lot of people love. I have been really fortunate to find a a direct care primary care doctor here in my area, who is just the most amazing thing. So I have a subscription with her that I pay for. And then right now, if I want an appointment, I can see her the next day. She takes all the time in the world with me. We went through
Michelle Renee (1:31:09)
Powerful.
Traci Thrash (1:31:12)
the whole gambit of HRT options. We started with, okay, do I need birth control pills? Because my first big symptom that I was reporting was cyclical rage, we'll call it. It was happening on the sixth of every month. And I was like, that is a hormonal reaction. Okay. and then that wasn't doing it. So we switched instead to the patches. And my skin hates the patches. So we came off the patches.
Michelle Renee (1:31:29)
Yeah.
Mm.
Traci Thrash (1:31:38)
I tried so many different versions of estrogen that my pharmacist actually said, Do you know this is the fourth estrogen you've picked up in the last two months? And I said, Yes, I do. And this one I think is finally the one. and so she's just really problem solved through all of that with me and been amazing to sit and listen to me. So whatever outlet it is to find a prescriber who actually like
Michelle Renee (1:32:05)
Mm-hmm. Find somebody
who listens and treats you based on symptoms, not necessarily based on numbers.
Traci Thrash (1:32:08)
Yes.
Right. Yeah. And that's what I have a lot of people will say, what kind of doctors do I need to see? Is it my gynecologist? Is it my family care doctor? And I say it's the one that listens to you the most. Start with them because you need a doctor who listens. So my number one fave is Doctors Who Listen. my favorite book that I'm like obsessed with, and I grabbed it off my shelf because I'm close by. I don't know if it'll be turned the right way, but it's called The Slow Moon Climbs.
Michelle Renee (1:32:37)
Yeah, it is.
Mm-hmm.
Traci Thrash (1:32:39)
And
it's not a medical book about menopause, it's a anthropological look at menopause. So she talks about you know looking at different cultures, looking at different times in human society and how older women were treated. There's a lot of like weird, fascinating stuff about how grandmothers were treated in societies, how women
Michelle Renee (1:32:45)
Ooh.
Traci Thrash (1:33:04)
behaved in societies where the property was passed down through the female line and like whether that was supportive of the children in their line or less more supportive or less supportive like just all sorts of weird stuff that every time I read a chapter I have to like put it down for a week and just process like what does that mean about what this time in our life is actually evolutionarily for? Like why are we in this phase?
Michelle Renee (1:33:30)
Mm-hmm.
Traci Thrash (1:33:33)
So I'm I love that book. There's lots of good books about the biology of menopause, but this one coming from that like connection and sociological angle, I'm kind of obsessed with it. And the author's Susan P. Mattern, she doesn't really have there's not a lot else out there by her. I haven't found a ton. She's not on social media every day posting more things. So that makes the book even more exciting to me because it's a scarcity.
Michelle Renee (1:33:58)
Sounds
it sounds like a great read. It's gonna have to go on my list.
Traci Thrash (1:34:01)
Yeah. Yeah,
for sure. I recommend it to everybody. and then my last one, and it's it's two things I think, but and this is so basic, but fiber. I'm I've become kind of a fiber obsessed person since I got at 50, I got my first colonoscopy, and I've been really trying because to get in
Michelle Renee (1:34:15)
Mm.
Traci Thrash (1:34:26)
proper amounts of fiber because colon cancer rates are increasing in our age bracket and it's getting younger and younger and getting all of our fiber is something that we can easily do that will help with that. And so my two big ones are there's and my my doctor that I love introduced me to fiber gummies. so you can take those. and then my other one that I didn't realize has so much fiber is avocado has a shit ton of fiber.
And so now I feel free to eat avocado with abandon and extra guacamole, even if it costs another dollar and all the things, because I'm like, I am just taking care of myself with all this extra fiber. And I think it's I think you again though, going back to pleasure, I tried for years to eat more fiber and it was always trying to make myself eat things that I didn't enjoy. So I had to like dial it back and say,
Michelle Renee (1:35:16)
Mm.
Traci Thrash (1:35:19)
What do I actually like to eat that has fiber in it? And now I can let myself eat those things in an unlimited amount.
Michelle Renee (1:35:25)
Do you have a fiber gummy that you like?
Traci Thrash (1:35:28)
I think it's a Marilex gummy is the one that I have. And it's just a big jar. And there I because I tried for a long time to use Marilex in the evening, like drink the gloopy stuff. and I just I don't like it. And so I don't so I don't do it because I don't like it.
Michelle Renee (1:35:30)
Okay.
Yeah.
I'm not gonna do it. I take I
take gummy vitamins, so it'd be really easy to throw some gummy fiber in there too.
Traci Thrash (1:35:49)
Yeah. Yeah. Throw a gummy fiber in
and and then I find with those I can be like, okay, each one is two grams of fiber. So the end of the day I know I've not even come close to eating fiber. I'm just gonna pot through gummies. Yeah. Yeah. That was
Michelle Renee (1:36:03)
So you spread them out. Yeah. I my my
my friend Alex is a sponsor for Peachy Clean, which is a fiber gummy for and they market to gay men a lot for making clean out easier before their sexual encounters. And I tried it.
Traci Thrash (1:36:16)
No.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:36:24)
is is very delicious, very good peach flavor. But then I looked at the price and I went, I don't know if I find it that important. You know what I mean? Like but I don't know how many is in each one. So now I'll have to do some math 'cause maybe that's the space I go. Who knows? But yeah.
Traci Thrash (1:36:32)
Yeah.
Yeah, could be.
Yeah. For a little while I was doing the Mirilex powder and chocolate milk. And I was like, Okay, that's kind of like having a treat, like that I can pretend like is good.
Michelle Renee (1:36:45)
Yeah.
Isn't Bena fiber
don't they have like a mix that is like doesn't have the the grit or the the texture to it?
Traci Thrash (1:36:57)
Yeah, and Metamucil has one that's a better texture too. But I don't know, maybe I'm just extra sensitive. I'm definitely sensitive to textures. And I I feel like I can always, even when they say you don't, like there's there's that infinitesimal thickness or there's like yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:37:05)
Yeah, me too. Okay. Okay.
I used to add I used to add
psyllium husk when I would do smoothies and stuff, but I I had bariatric surgery in twenty one and I can't drink a smoothie like I used to. It just I can't handle it's just too much and it fills me up too fast, so makes it complicated. But anything else that you love
Traci Thrash (1:37:18)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think those are my
Mmm. my other favorite, which is not in rotation right now, but that I recommend to everybody, is a dual zone heater mattress pad. Living in Wisconsin, it's one of the best things ever. My wife runs cold and I run hot, especially at night. I will get like hot and angry if I get hot in the middle of the night. So she's able to literally like her side of the bed is like an
Michelle Renee (1:37:59)
Mm-hmm.
Traci Thrash (1:38:02)
oven and she'll like triple layer up. And then my side of the bed has sometimes a fan blowing from outside on me, but she can keep herself warm enough. And it is the best thing. And living in Wisconsin will preheat it. So so we call it turning the beds on. So when she gets home from work at night, she turns the beds on. And recently we were we said that in front of some people.
Michelle Renee (1:38:18)
Mm-hmm.
Traci Thrash (1:38:28)
some friends and they were like, What does turning the beds on mean? And I'm like, that's the heaters in the bed. And it is a very important ritual that happens in this house. So that is also a favorite. Yeah. We we
Michelle Renee (1:38:39)
That's a good tip. That's a good tip. Yeah. And like
how to how to keep your how to keep your partner in the same bed with you if that's what you want. I'm really considering. I've stayed in here in my office a few times. And there's times where I'm like, maybe it's that time. I don't know. Cause I'm I'm also a very light sleeper. And progesterone helped with that at first, but I don't feel like it's nearly it's not staying with me quite as much. Yeah.
Traci Thrash (1:38:52)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
It's yeah. The second
night I slept over at my wife's house when we were first dating. we crawled in bed and she pulled out earplugs and I was like, what is that? And she was like, I just, you know, you make some noises and and I loved that she was willing to be like, I want you here, but also I'm gonna need earplugs to to sleep next to you. Like, so
Michelle Renee (1:39:24)
This is how
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Traci Thrash (1:39:30)
Yeah, those are and that's still still a thing. Every night the earplugs come out and all those little things though that you you adjust. Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:39:38)
The quirks. The quirks of living together. You know? Awesome. Well, Traci,
I think an hour and forty-five minutes is I'm one of these days I'm just gonna make turn this into a three-hour podcast. But this was delightful. Thank you for having like a real conversation about this stuff.
Traci Thrash (1:39:52)
Yeah. Yeah. I hope other people
Yeah, I I hope other people find it as delightful as we did 'cause I love catching up with you and I love talking to you and I love hearing your perspectives on things. So this was great.
Michelle Renee (1:40:08)
Love them to find
it delightful too. And I really don't care at the same time. Like I I say often, this is a podcast for me. And if you want to be a voyeur and listen to my conversations with my friends, this is why I put it out there. There were many times before I did this that I get off a call with a friend and I'd be Man, I wish we recorded that. That's a good conversation. And so now I mean it's a little bit different, but it it is very much about like who cares what they think. Kind of like that's part of life I'm in right now.
Traci Thrash (1:40:25)
yeah. Yeah. No, you do.
Yeah, that's true.
That's true. Well, and that's
Michelle Renee (1:40:37)
cares what they think. So thanks for being
thanks for being a friend that that circled back and said, let's talk about this. I see you talking about menopause. Let's talk about it. And I was like, yeah, that's not a topic that I've covered here yet. And even if I had, it wouldn't matter because it's a whole different, it's a different connection. It's what it's it's not really about the information. It's about the connection that people get to kind of peek in on. So
Traci Thrash (1:40:45)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's so many different angles.
Exactly. Yeah.
Yeah, for sure. Well, thank you for letting me come on and talk for an hour and forty five minutes and I appreciate it.
Michelle Renee (1:41:09)
Mm, it's actu actually an absolute
speaking of pleasure, it is a pleasure or I wouldn't do it because that's how my life is ruled. how can people find you?
Traci Thrash (1:41:18)
so my website is thechanged doulas.com. So there's an S at the end of doulas. it is still just me, but when I went to get the website, I couldn't get the Change Doulas. So I said, why don't I manifest that one day it will be more than just me? And I'll throw an S on there. So thechanged doulas.com, and you can find me. Then you can find links. Yeah, so I have
Michelle Renee (1:41:37)
In your groups, do you have you have virtual groups? Awesome.
Traci Thrash (1:41:42)
Starting June 4th, so next Thursday, I'm going to be doing a virtual movement class on through Thursday mornings at eight. and that'll be movement and some connection. And then I'm going to be starting on Tuesdays in July a virtual circle where women can come together and talk about what's going on for them because I the sharing part of it seems to be such
Michelle Renee (1:42:00)
Very cool.
Traci Thrash (1:42:08)
an important piece of what a lot of people are missing right now in the conversation.
Michelle Renee (1:42:12)
Mm-hmm.
Well, it's just I know we keep saying the loneliness epidemic, but when you look at the the benefits we have from technology also become the things that keep us apart. And if we can use tech to have community, at least let's do that. Right. And I'm a big I'm a big fan of community building.
Traci Thrash (1:42:31)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. And I'd love
I I do want one day to have an in person circle too that's meeting regularly because I think that there is a component when you actually get to be in the space together. But I also think that being able to have it, there's so many people that in person isn't accessible to. So it's a Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:42:45)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and maybe it turns into a retreat that people get to have
from your community. And you know, I I think the h the the hybrid situation is is has so much richness to it. So if you ever do one, hit me up. Talk about collaboration. We can find a way to collaborate on that. That'd be great. Well, I don't know how soon I'll get this out, but I don't have any other ones in the hopper.
Traci Thrash (1:42:58)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, 'cause I think I will. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That would be I would love that. That would be amazing. Yeah. Okay.
Okay. Yeah. Whenever
Michelle Renee (1:43:21)
So maybe it gets
out before your your June offering, but maybe it doesn't. We
Traci Thrash (1:43:26)
That is okay. Whatever,
whatever pace works for you. I I'm excited that I got to do my first interview podcast conversation that will be published with somebody that I trust and respect and love as much as you. So that was that was great to just get to do this with you and and I didn't die. And so yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:43:49)
It it was like we weren't even recording. It
Traci Thrash (1:43:52)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (1:43:52)
was like we weren't even recording. Well, thank you, Traci. So thank you everybody for listening and
Traci Thrash (1:43:56)
we say bye.
Michelle Renee (1:44:01)
Yeah, I don't know. I'd love to know what if you have any thoughts, you can always I think if you go to intimacy lab podcast dot com, you can send me a comment and I would be happy to respond. So thank you.
