Coach Alex Ray Part 2 - The Follow Up!
In this episode, Michelle and Coach Alex Ray debrief their recent intimate experiment, exploring themes of vulnerability, friendship, and sexual orientation. They discuss the emotional highs and lows of their experience, the importance of communication in navigating intimacy, and the complexities of arousal and connection. Through laughter and tears, they reflect on the significance of their bond and the lessons learned about themselves and each other. In this conversation, Michelle and Coach Alex explore the complexities of asexuality, communication in intimate relationships, and the importance of understanding individual preferences in sexual experiences. They discuss the significance of pleasure beyond orgasms, the challenges of arousal and desire, and the need for comprehensive sexual education. The dialogue emphasizes the diversity of bodies and the importance of vulnerability and communication in fostering deeper connections.
Alex Ray (he/she/they) is an internationally certified sex and relationship coach with eight years of experience. Whether guiding singles toward their dream partner, bringing couples closer together, or supporting an amicable separation, Alex specializes in helping people speak up for their needs and desires with confidence.
Passionate about sex education and open conversations, Alex is launching Kink Curious, a new podcast premiering in May, where they explore the why behind what turns people on. They’re also building an employee-owned sex education company to bring shame-free learning to more people.
Connect with Alex online @heyalexgay on Instagram and TikTok or coachalexray.com
Michelle Renee (she/her) is a San Diego-based Human Connection Coach and Cuddle Therapist. Michelle's websites are https://meetmichellerenee.com and https://humanconnectioncoach.com and she can be found on social media at https://instagram.com/meetmichellerenee.
If you’d like to ask a question for Michelle to answer on an episode, https://www.meetmichellerenee.com/podcast
Rough Transcript:
Michelle Renee (she/her) (00:21)
Welcome back to the intimacy lab. I just want to leave a little note here before you get started. If you caught episode 20 with coach Alex Ray, this episode, I'm going to call it episode 21 is a debrief of a little sex experiment that we kind of talked about in our first episode together in episode 20. So if you haven't listened to episode 20 yet, I want you to pause right now. And if you'd like.
go check out episode 20 before you listen to 21. If you don't, you can start here and then you might want to go back and fill in blanks for yourself. But we had a lot of fun talking about and doing a bit of a debrief about our experiment together. And our effort and sharing is to help you see kind of transparently what that was like for us, what kind of communication we had. And also I want you to know I did not do any edits.
on this debrief. We did not plan it ahead of time. You'll see me kind of talk in a bit of a disorganized fashion, unsure how I want to tell the story, but I wanted to leave it that way because it's real. And I hope you enjoy. And if you want to really ask any questions, we welcome them. And you can always go pose those questions at IntimacyLabPodcast.com and we'll put them on a future episode. Enjoy.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (01:48)
Welcome back to the, I'm gonna say a spicy update. Though I don't know what spice it was. It might be like cinnamon or not like, not like habanero or something like that. Like, I feel like it's a cozy spice. The cozy spice. Yeah. I wanted to update our listeners because I'm sure there's like 12 of them out there that are so want to know this update.
Coach Alex Ray (01:58)
Su-Sumit Spice... Meg.
Cozy spice. It is a cozy spice.
Totally.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (02:18)
I mean, I think it's cool. Alex and I did the thing.
Coach Alex Ray (02:25)
We did the thing! We did the thing!
Michelle Renee (she/her) (02:30)
We were like herding cats, but we did the thing.
And look, are we still friends? Are we maybe closer friends than we were before? I don't even know if that's possible, but like, I feel like there's an extra intimacy.
Coach Alex Ray (02:35)
It was quite funny. Absolutely.
I agree. think there's this, I don't know. In the gay community, it's like, if you haven't sucked your friend's dick, are you really friends yet, right? So.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (02:59)
In my community,
don't think it's, I think it's like in a lot of the sex positive communities. Maybe everything outside of like, cishet mononormativity, like that very like, vanilla, the most vanilla of the vanilla worlds. I always said like, if you haven't seen my vulva, are we really friends? And now you've seen my vulva, so now we're really friends.
Coach Alex Ray (03:06)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
I love that.
I have more than seen your Vulva ⁓
Michelle Renee (she/her) (03:31)
We ran you through your paces to make sure that we didn't like leave much on the table. Yeah. Yeah. Did a pre-run down ⁓ with my friend Phoenix because we're co-working this morning and I was like, I have to pop. I have to make sure I pop onto Riverside with Alex at 11 because we kind of did this thing and then I had to give them like the quick run down. By the way, Phoenix, Phoenix sends their love. ⁓ Yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (03:39)
Definitely. Yeah. Good luck.
Give them my love back. ⁓
Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:01)
So, so yeah, I don't even know where to start. How are you feeling today?
Coach Alex Ray (04:08)
I'm feeling good. I'm feeling...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:09)
Do we feel like normal
human beings today, just like we felt yesterday morning? I do.
Coach Alex Ray (04:14)
Mostly, I would say there's also this part of me that feels...
What is it? Liberated?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:27)
Mmm.
Coach Alex Ray (04:29)
Yum.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:30)
Did you give a middle finger to like what you're supposed to do?
Coach Alex Ray (04:35)
Absolutely. And I love giving the middle finger to all the normative things. So it'll make me be normal, and that's the worst.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (04:40)
Yeah.
No, ⁓ I feel I've said I've shared the thing that really stood out for me. I guess that's where we'll start. What is loudest for you? Loudest for me? ⁓ For me, I think the thing that really sticks out, we can figure out where we go from here after I after I share and you share. But I think the big takeaway for me, I know this, I felt like this was a thing for you.
in a way and that you brought it up first. But also I felt like it was a thing for me. So so like, I'll be interested to see what your takeaways were for me personally, besides just getting to have some notches on my belt, which I really enjoy, right?
There was a lovely, my highlight moment was we're skipping around here, but people can follow along.
Coach Alex Ray (05:37)
I lost my place when trying to tell my partner the sequence of events and I was like, wait, no, that happened before this and then this happened after that. Whatever. These are a lot of things that happened the order I don't remember anymore.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (05:46)
Yeah.
Okay,
maybe I should change this. I want to say, okay, maybe I'll do this. I'm to give a series of highlights and I'm going to go in order of operations. I'll go in chronological order. One is really fucking proud of myself when I said, I really want to spoon you. Like it was really clear. What do I want right now was the question I asked myself. And what I really wanted was to be big spoon for you. And like,
Coach Alex Ray (05:57)
Okay.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (06:17)
I just felt good to notice. Like this is my drive, which totally, totally lines up with what I'll say my orientation is, which is more of a sensual orientation of like, want the physical closeness and the skin to skin. that felt like that was very much like as real of Michelle as you could possibly get of what do I really want right now? The sex thing was a, I want to do this thing as a,
Coach Alex Ray (06:19)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (06:47)
experiment and something to have a story about and like an interesting friend bonding moment. But like, yeah. ⁓ But that moment of what do want right now? I just really want to get my body against yours and just like spoon.
Coach Alex Ray (06:55)
and curiosity.
Yeah, I love cuddling and that was such a wonderful moment of just closeness.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (07:08)
Yeah.
We should do more of that.
I would love more naked cuddling with you. I mean, it doesn't have to be naked, but why not? I feel like... Let me back up. I think we must have spent... I was getting dressed this morning, pulling my clothes off the floor. This is exactly what I had on yesterday. And I had this little moment. I had this little moment of, well, I barely wore them. We were in bed for what, four hours, probably at least, naked. So out of the whole day...
Coach Alex Ray (07:16)
Totally, I'm down.
Right. There's a freedom to it.
it is!
I don't know, time,
time flew by.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (07:43)
But it was a very extent, like I think you must have got here.
before two and didn't leave till sometime after seven. And like we didn't like shoot straight to the bedroom. We were out in the living room chatting and by the way, people at home, negotiated. We talked about all of this ahead of time. Made a game plan. My husband was involved and I don't, we hadn't really talked about that as part of our like pre-planning. And so like I wanted us all to be in a room.
Coach Alex Ray (07:50)
Yeah, I think it was... Yeah.
Absolutely. There was a lot of conversations.
I think we had mentioned
it over brunch that one time. Yeah, we weren't sure. And then he was like, yeah, I might be down for that. But it was still, there was nothing solid. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (08:18)
Breakfast, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
No,
no. So that was like my first, we will bounce back and forth. I don't know. I don't know how to talk about this. I don't want to just be like, this is Michelle's story. Alex, before I go on to the next thing that I'm really proud of, what's something that is standing out for you today?
Coach Alex Ray (08:33)
Okay.
Yes.
Well, my favorite moment ⁓ was when tears showed up and we just hugged.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (08:54)
Which time? Because
we had, I teared up a couple. I mean, I really cried the second time. But I think there was a moment first where tears showed up. Do you remember that?
Coach Alex Ray (08:58)
Mm-hmm
Yeah, because I think both of us were tearing up at that point at the very beginning. And it was
Michelle Renee (she/her) (09:08)
I think it was like, I
had that moment where I was like, I don't want, I want, feel so responsible for this space. And we were going to do, so, so fun story. I'll give a little, I don't want to give too many details because I don't want this to just be the salacious, like, I guess it wouldn't probably be salacious. It'd be more funny than anything else. But I think a genius, a genius move on our part was to decide to do a genital show and tell.
Coach Alex Ray (09:14)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (09:35)
before anything else. Like, because I was gonna, for those at home, I was gonna, I was planning to top Alex with some impact play and some knife play and whatnot first. And so we decided before that started, we would, we would do a genital, like, take, take Alex through a vulva. And this is something I'm used to doing in my work as a surrogate partner. done it so many times. But what was cool about this one, I just got to be the stunt cunt.
Coach Alex Ray (09:38)
Yeah, and you suggested that.
You do.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (10:05)
Right?
And I laid back and covered my face up because I was, this is legit. It was like this combination of.
Coach Alex Ray (10:08)
I love that term.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (10:20)
A little bit of I can't believe I'm here right now. A lot of, my gosh, this gay man is about to get a very up close personal tour of my vulva by my husband. And I don't want to scare him. Like, I don't know, I had this story that gay men are afraid of vulvas and that, and I just didn't.
Coach Alex Ray (10:22)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Totally.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (10:47)
I don't want to ruin this thing, right? Like I don't want to not get off the ground at all just because you're like, ⁓ like, like, I don't know. So, so that was like a big thing that was on my mind. And I think that's when I sat up and I said, like, I have a story that I feel really responsible for you, for you to have a positive experience. And I'm so worried about this moment. And I think that brought tears up for me.
Coach Alex Ray (10:54)
Right?
Mm-hmm.
and me. Yeah. Vote.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (11:19)
Yeah. As fun as
the space was, there was a little bit of heaviness of like, don't want this to go. I didn't have any fear that it would go bad, but I didn't want to have like it. You know, everybody has a lot of people have a story of like a really bad first experience in something, and I just didn't want to have that story be attached to me.
Coach Alex Ray (11:30)
Alright.
Uh huh. Uh huh. Uh huh.
Yeah, yeah, I felt really honored that you would take that risk with me. Because I knew that no matter what, we would be friends at the end, but I also, ahead of time, was kind of putting myself in your shoes and thinking, you know, this is a really big, a big ask for any, for anyone to be like,
Hey, do you wanna be my first? And like, that'll always be a thing. Like, no pressure.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (12:14)
Good thing, good thing,
but good thing that I'm a sex worker, right? And I think that makes things such a different, this is so not unusual of an experience for me. It is unusual in that I've never been with a gay man before and that was the intrigue for me was like, what would this be like? Is this gonna be so fucking weird or what is this? Like, what will it be? So the curiosity, you know, killed the cat. ⁓
Coach Alex Ray (12:28)
Yeah.
Yeah.
The kitty.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (12:45)
The kitty, yeah. ⁓
So like, and then like, you know, so I guess we broke the seal with the tears at the beginning.
Coach Alex Ray (12:54)
Mm-hmm, absolutely. I
think that was a really good connecting moment for us to both to get it out on the table that there was, yeah, it felt like it kind of evened the playing field. That's sort of a weird term to use here. But like it felt like we were both getting to be very authentic, very vulnerable.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:02)
share some vulnerability.
Coach Alex Ray (13:20)
really show our cards of here's what I'm worried about, here's what I'm concerned could happen. And I think it took a lot of pressure off of the experience after that. I noticed a shift now.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:22)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's like there's no bravado. You know what I mean?
Like there's none of this like, ⁓ I'm a pro. I can do this and not have any any concern. Like I think about like sex is rarely an event for me anymore that doesn't come with so many layers of.
Coach Alex Ray (13:53)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (13:58)
Concern comes up for me. Complication is a word that comes up for me. It's not simple anymore. It's not as easy as back in my early dating years post divorce where I could just meet a person on OkCupid and sometimes not even get coffee with them. Like I
Coach Alex Ray (14:02)
Mhm.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (14:28)
I am not, I'm a little ashamed to say like I've done the I don't know you and I'll still show up at your door thing that I'm glad I'm alive, I guess. But like it was, there was less thought involved back then. And this is something that I don't, not just you and I, but sex in general comes with so much internal.
Coach Alex Ray (14:42)
huh.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (14:54)
Contemplation, maybe that's the right word. There's a lot of contemplation around logistics, feelings, anticipation. What's the difference between anticipation and expectations? Pressure, my internal pressure, the pressure from the other person. It's not easy. And I think calling out what was currently alive for me is just something that I've...
Coach Alex Ray (14:56)
Uh-huh.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (15:23)
grown to do. And I do think that it was, it felt good just to say it.
Coach Alex Ray (15:25)
Mm-hmm.
Definitely. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (15:32)
like address
the awkward.
Coach Alex Ray (15:34)
Yeah. And it made it made me feel more comfortable to be able to, I don't know, just kind of connect with you over that. And for us to both be like, all right, there's no expert here. We're both going to like be two humans fumbling our way through this. you know, right. Yeah. One was one was fumbling slightly less and a little more focused than the two of us. But. Right.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (15:51)
make it three humans fumbling our way through it.
Which is ironic that it's my husband. Like, he's
never the most focused person in the room. And that was a joke that we had to acknowledge at some point was like, there was a lot of drifting into all sorts of conversation. And there was a moment where we kind of paused and Paul tried to bring us back on topic. What are we doing here? What is our purpose of being here?
Coach Alex Ray (16:13)
Totally.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (16:26)
I think he was getting hungry, honestly. think he was just like thinking about dinner. But it's like this moment of like there are three ADHDers in the room and only one of us is medicated. And he got to herd cats. because and this is I think goes to my the second thing that I really for me was really, really powerful was the other tearful event. So we book ended kind of the whole experience with tears. But
Coach Alex Ray (16:40)
He did.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (16:56)
⁓
Coach Alex Ray (16:57)
which is the best.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (16:59)
Tears happen in my sex a lot. Usually it's post-orgasm. It was not the case this time, but tears nonetheless. Orgasms for the eyes. ⁓
you shared that you felt like you got a better sense of what it's like for me as an asexual person.
I took that to dinner. Like, we ended up going to dinner because we didn't feel like leftovers. I ⁓ was talking to Paul about it over dinner. Like, it was so impactful.
because.
There's always been a doubt in the last, see when did I realize that I was identified with the asexual world was? August of 2023.
Coach Alex Ray (18:01)
Okay.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:04)
Combine that with some other things in my life. Sex has just become really hard.
And there was a question for me that maybe it wasn't any of these things. Maybe there was just a I'm intellectualizing myself into this corner of like, OK, so you're asexual and you're a perimenopausal and you're on this GLP one that kills your pleasure centers and all these things. Maybe you could maybe your experience of this is like you don't experience sexual attraction. Maybe it's.
Like the way, I don't know how to organize this into words, but the way that you experience sex, maybe it's not the asexual experience. Maybe it's some of this other stuff.
Coach Alex Ray (18:48)
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (18:52)
But A, the confirmation that like in that space what I really wanted to do was cuddle you, right? That's again that I have a sensual attraction. But also to get to experiment in having sex outside of our orientations with another person that is also acting outside of their orientation. I've never had that before.
Coach Alex Ray (18:59)
You
The food.
Uh-huh.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (19:19)
and to have you resonate with my experience. You think it's not just me. That my experience is real and that it's connected to a lot of things, but it is connected to asexuality. That the math made sense for me. And I've never like, that was a validation I did not know I was going to get in that space. So thank you for sharing it out loud.
Coach Alex Ray (19:34)
Yeah.
Hmm.
You're welcome.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (19:48)
and not keeping
it to yourself because I know it could have been easy to keep that thought to you but God it was... There's not money that could pay for that information.
That was like such a gift.
Coach Alex Ray (20:08)
I'm so glad I could give that to you.
I, in that moment, I did feel a little nervous of like, uh-oh, how will she take this? It's already leaving my mouth. And then I was like, ⁓ shit, did I say the wrong thing when I saw you start to tear up? And then when I, when you expressed the gratitude and the feeling that you felt understood.
I felt a huge sense of joy that this could be such an equal experience for us. Because I went in kind of worried like, wow, is this all about me? Am I the only one that's gonna get to leave here going, wow, I learned something today? Or, hey, that was...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (20:59)
Yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (21:08)
That was new for me, but the fact that you were able to feel that sense of being understood, it made me so happy. It made me so happy.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (21:19)
Yeah, it was unexpected.
was so unexpected. I'll say for the people at home, the overall gist of our space together, I think was lighthearted.
Coach Alex Ray (21:32)
Totally, which is why the conversation, we kept getting distracted on conversations and I wouldn't want it any other way. If we, if we or whoever, if I had this experience with someone else and it was like, okay, we gotta go do it, let's do it.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (21:51)
Here's our checkbox,
check marks, right? Like, yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (21:54)
I think that would have left me with a negative impression and...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:01)
It wouldn't have been fun.
Coach Alex Ray (22:03)
No... No...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:05)
It would have been more task oriented.
Coach Alex Ray (22:09)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:11)
Yeah. Yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (22:12)
And
I feel like if that was the case, like, I should have, if I was gonna do that, I should have hired a sex worker to be like, all right, here, it's my time to learn.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:23)
Uh huh.
Yeah, we got an hour. Better get to it. I mean, I've done those sessions before. I don't do, I won't do them ever again. The one hour, I would never do sex work in a one hour container ever, ever again. Um.
Coach Alex Ray (22:27)
Yeah, let's ⁓
It's
never an hour anyway.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (22:42)
Well, and it's just the pressure, the time pressure, especially if it's somebody you don't know. I've done like, what I joke is like virginity harvesting, where it's a client that just thinks their life is going to be different if they weren't a virgin anymore.
Coach Alex Ray (22:49)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (23:02)
And it's so disconnected, at least the few experiences I've had, is like, okay, literally these are the words that I heard. Am I in? Cool. That was the whole point of that whole experience was to know that his penis was in me and that he wasn't a virgin anymore. Such an unfulfilling.
Coach Alex Ray (23:32)
right. I-
Michelle Renee (she/her) (23:33)
Sad,
like sad, like there's such a missing component. That's not ⁓ sex with another person. That's a human masturbation sleeve.
Coach Alex Ray (23:39)
Right.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (23:49)
And that sleeve would be a lot cheaper. That sleeve is a lot cheaper. You can warm it up. know what mean? I don't, that's not the sex that I want to practice. And like, you, like, I think I joked on the first episode with you is like, sex might look like us naked eating pizza in bed. That might be what it is. We did get to have our ice cream.
Coach Alex Ray (23:49)
That's a very good term.
No.
Yeah, we did get to have our ice cream.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (24:16)
We didn't even have to get out of bed to get it. Thank God for my darling husband who has always loves to be in service.
Coach Alex Ray (24:16)
would make me very happy.
was great.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (24:25)
Do you have another highlight reel? Special moment that stands out?
Coach Alex Ray (24:36)
Yeah, I really loved when you offered like, hey, would you like to 69 with me? A lot of things, a lot of the times that you were offering things, it took pressure off of me and helped me just feel like, ⁓ great, okay. Cause I definitely, I had curiosities in my head of like, I wonder what this would be like.
And I felt nervous to like initiate the asking, which in hindsight now feels kind of silly. But in the moment, it felt, I felt nervous around it. But the way that you kept offering things invited me to go, yeah, thank you. I would like to try this.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (25:08)
Yeah.
Makes sense.
I, I...
Yeah, I had hesitation to offer because I didn't know what was going on in your head. And like, again, I know what it's like to not be in my orientation. And so much of I think what's really, really clear to me in the post ⁓ processing of all this is that part of what works for me in partnered sex is my partner's arousal.
Coach Alex Ray (25:33)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (25:48)
Right? So that's what's in. So I'm always like waiting for arousal to hit me. And once arousal hits me, it's so much easier to move forward and all the yumminess. And I think for the two of us, it was really hard to capture that arousal. Right? Like, so it was like, OK, like I felt probably the closest to arousal when I was topping you.
Coach Alex Ray (25:58)
Hmm.
Right. Which makes sense.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (26:18)
the impact play. When I had you face to face with me and my body was right up pressed against yours and I got to bite on you a bit and stuff, I could feel the energy starting to stir in me of like, right? That was probably the closest I got to being able to hold on to some arousal. Yet, funniest thing for me, and I'm still trying to wrap my head around this, kissing you was so good.
Coach Alex Ray (26:29)
Yeah.
Yeah. I agree.
Yay! ⁓
Michelle Renee (she/her) (26:48)
And normally, no,
normally kissing for me is such a complicated thing until arousal hits. Like, it's like, it's really complicated. It didn't feel like it used to be like this. And with you, it felt like old Michelle showed up as far as like the person that used to love, like I have hosted a second base party before where it was just like a make out party with like, it was so fun and my thing was like,
Coach Alex Ray (26:55)
Mm-hmm.
Aww.
That sounds fine.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (27:17)
I wanted to kiss everybody at the party and I almost got everybody covered. So that opened up this door of so often I would use, this was my go-to girl game. When I met a woman I wanted to spend time with, go, we should have a makeout date, because it's a low stakes invitation. And oh my gosh, so much making out was in my life. And now it's such a complicated thing for me. But you and I.
We were good kissers.
Coach Alex Ray (27:48)
I'm like, maybe the opposite of what you're explaining. I'm not sure. Tell me how it relates to your experience. ⁓ I typically need making out to get aroused. It's, okay, okay. It's really, really hard for me to get aroused just by stimulation.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:05)
Mm-hmm. I used to. Mm-hmm.
Coach Alex Ray (28:16)
anywhere on my body without having making out be part of it. I think there's like a psychological thing for me about it. I feel connected and feeling connected is really, important to me in sex. When I feel disconnected from my partner or partners, know, whoever I'm having sex with, I also feel kind of disconnected from my body.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (28:29)
Mm-hmm.
Coach Alex Ray (28:46)
but when I feel connected to them, oftentimes I'm then able to feel a lot more connected to my body. And so sometimes it's like, someone wants to start with like a blowjob, for example, it usually doesn't do much to get me aroused until we make out. And then if we go back to blowjob, then I'll get an erection. But if it's just blowjob with nothing,
proceeding it, I'll usually stay flaccid. So yeah, I really enjoyed making out with you two and that was a wonderful, yeah, I would too.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (29:18)
Yeah.
Yeah, like I would totally make out with you more. Yeah,
⁓ I was just thinking like for me, part of that, think kissing ⁓ was definitely something I've always really enjoyed until more recent times. ⁓ For me, it's kind of shifted into like a slow roll, like cuddling and like either doing something to my partner that turns him on so that that sparks the arousal in me like
I don't know if you there was a point where I heard some moaning happening and I was like, ⁓ there. That's good. Do more like y'all. Y'all keep doing that thing you're doing because that's really hot for me. Right. But so kissing, maybe it's part of my work that got me to this point. It was interesting when I was doing work where I was teaching people how to kiss and I'm doing it from such a space of not.
Coach Alex Ray (29:54)
Mm-hmm.
Uh-huh.
Mm-hmm. Mmm, mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (30:20)
it's out of context in some ways. ⁓ It's hard in in circuit partner work, especially because I had to wear this like teacher hat so much to get that hat off and put on like authentic Michelle erotic hat was impossible. It rarely ever happened. so a lot of times kissing was part of that
Coach Alex Ray (30:35)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (30:50)
whole process, but I wasn't there in the same capacity as say my client was there. And so part of what I would lay the foundation for kissing around is please don't, I'm not a big kisser with tongue. And what I've said now more recently since I don't do that end of the work anymore when I'm with a new partner, say, kind of need like tongue for me isn't a thing until I'm aroused and then I'll be a completely different kisser.
Coach Alex Ray (30:58)
Hmm
Hmm hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (31:20)
Like there's a, I don't know, even Paul and I, will say we are better kissers with each other when there's a flavor involved. If he takes a shot of bourbon or he's eaten a really yummy dessert or there's something there, then it's like, then suddenly we can kiss way better. Like our kissing is way hotter. You and I didn't need any, we weren't even fucking aroused.
Coach Alex Ray (31:20)
Right.
We were like, ⁓ this is nice. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (31:47)
But this is really good. was like my favorite,
definitely a very favorite highlight of our time together was like, oh yeah, we can do that. Like we do that good. Like, uh-huh.
Coach Alex Ray (32:00)
Yeah. Uh-huh. That,
honestly, I think that moment was the most out of my head, natural body, like in my body moment. That was the moment where I like, like lost track of, ⁓ of things being different, of being outside my orientation. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:16)
Mmm.
That's cool. Yeah, like I forgot where I was.
Coach Alex Ray (32:30)
It was really neat. Yeah. And then I also had this thought
that was like, why don't I make out with my friends more? This is crazy. Honestly.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:38)
So you got to start asking for make out dates. Take
it from a pro.
Coach Alex Ray (32:43)
Wait,
for a make out date, would I say, hey, do you wanna come over and hang out and make out? Or is it like we go out for coffee and then we end up making, like how does, what does the make out, the arc of a make out date look like?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (32:57)
It's been a long time. Yeah, it's been
a long time since I've had this kind of desire for this, the game of like, like, like making these kind of moves on people. ⁓ It was something that worked. Well, I'm just like, I think it worked really well on women. So I don't, that's my sample size. it was like, that was my girl game.
Coach Alex Ray (33:11)
Yeah. Well, what did you used to do?
Mmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (33:26)
So it would be like, you're really cool. We should have a make out date sometime. Like literally, I just like meet them and be like, I want to spend more time with you. We should have a make out date. To the extent that one time, my God, this girl was so fucking hot. She was so hot. She ended up being a really high end escort, like really high end escort. I don't think she was at that time. I don't really care, but ⁓ gorgeous.
Coach Alex Ray (33:31)
Hmm.
Love.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (33:53)
gorgeous and I was like, hey, we should have a makeout day sometime and she said yes and Then we were both like but we want to go to this munch on the same date. I Said I have an idea Paul could drive us and we can be in the backseat We can still have our makeout date and get to the munch because like an hour away so he just like had the best like rearview mirror view of like an
incredibly beautiful woman and his girlfriend making out in the backseat.
Coach Alex Ray (34:28)
This is like every husband's fantasy.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (34:32)
I mean, he lives a pretty privilege. both look at each other. So even after you left last night, so after you left, he was like, I'm kind of feeling like I want to go out. And I was like, all right. So we went out and grabbed dinner and we come back home. Well, on the way home, I said, if you want to have sex when we get home, I would be open to it. And he said, I'm feeling kind of full and complete. And he said, that's cool. I was just saying, I'm open to it. It does not bother me not to have any sexy time because like it
Coach Alex Ray (34:37)
Yeah.
Yeah.
huh.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:02)
There was that point at end of our play where Paul's like, are you saying you want to get off? And I was like, no, like, but I was open to continuing. And he goes, but would you like to cuddle? And I was like, yeah. So we got home and crawled in bed and cuddled. And then I had asked him if he wanted to watch the last episode of the last season of Love on the Spectrum. And he had said yes. So said, do you want to watch that right now while we cuddle? like, yeah, sure. So.
Coach Alex Ray (35:08)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (35:30)
So we did that. And there was this moment where I turned to him and I said, we have such a charmed life, which is a regular thing that we say to each other because we really are surrounded by the coolest people. As far as talk about easygoing and what are you doing on a Sunday? Well, we're going to go to the nudist resort, but the weather doesn't look good enough. Wanna come sexy experiment? Yeah, sure.
Coach Alex Ray (35:59)
Right. People don't... normies aren't doing this. I love that we do.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (36:06)
No, and I haven't done anything like that in quite a while. Like, I mean, we have our standard, like, once in a blue moon hookup friend that, you know, we might, for whatever reason, play. But ⁓ it's just not a thing that's quite as regular in our life anymore. Like, just different interests. I think as my special interests shift, it's shifted away from, like,
Coach Alex Ray (36:10)
Mmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (36:35)
sex and like group play and even there's not much non-monogamy happening, right? Like this technically open relationship, it's not a huge priority to either one of us. So it was a little bit of a nice little shake up of like, oh, we have this king bed for a reason, like, and all these mirrors.
Coach Alex Ray (36:54)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (37:06)
Why not?
Coach Alex Ray (37:08)
Cut.
I love that. What was it like ⁓ for you coming down from the experience yesterday?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (37:12)
It was fun.
I mean, really, I holding on to that feeling of validation of my experience as an asexual. Like, I'm like, on the way home, was like, my God, this would be a great presentation for a conference or something of like, our experience in navigating, like, mixed orientation, just in general, right? There's a few different configurations that we can represent in that threesome space.
Coach Alex Ray (37:38)
my God, yes.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (37:53)
yesterday, right? It would be an interesting talk.
Coach Alex Ray (37:53)
Absolutely, yeah. You know,
the one thing that we haven't talked about yet that also became a factor in this was I wasn't sure how your husband would do, are we saying his name or not on the show? Okay, okay. I wasn't sure how Paul would do in the space and if he was interested in interacting with me at all. And I'm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:10)
Yeah, no, everybody, yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (38:22)
I think growing up gay, there's a ton of pressure that a lot of us put on ourselves to try to fit in to spaces with men in general. And ⁓ there's always this kind of fear in my head that like a guy that doesn't want me hitting on him,
is gonna think I'm hitting on him and then it'll ruin our friendship or something. And so there was this pressure in my head, like how affectionate or touchy and whatever is okay for me to do with Paul and how much should I not be interacting with him?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (38:52)
Mm.
Mm.
I think that's a common three-way question in general.
Coach Alex Ray (39:23)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:24)
I mean, it resonates with me and I think looking back, we didn't do a good job of talking about that ahead of time. Because like, I mean, I've talked to you about the fact that I would be totally okay if you and Paul hooked up. And I've talked to him. Right, right. And that's what we missed. We missed that. This is that complication.
Coach Alex Ray (39:42)
Yeah, but I hadn't necessarily heard it from him.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (39:50)
I say within my work, like working with single people is so much easier because there's way less different combinations of dynamics that you have to work with. And, and couples are more complicated because they're, they're, they're relationships with each other and yet their relationship with themselves and their relationship with me and like all these different things that get exponentially more complicated. Throw that into a three way situation and you've just
Coach Alex Ray (39:58)
Yeah
Michelle Renee (she/her) (40:19)
you exponentially have complicated it even more. And so maybe that's a look back. What would what would what we could have improved was laying that out more transparently. Yeah, because I've been in three way situations where I'm like, I'm not sure what my role is here, especially if you're the unicorn. ⁓ Even in like a three way with a friend and my partner.
Coach Alex Ray (40:22)
Yeah.
Sure.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (40:49)
I had been with the friend one on one and I still was afraid to show up authentically and worried that I was going to. ⁓
Coach Alex Ray (40:52)
Hmm
Michelle Renee (she/her) (41:04)
That's the right word. Somehow like step on something with my partner. Like, oh, you're making a noise you don't make for me. Or, you know what I mean? Like there's just so much that complicates.
Coach Alex Ray (41:11)
Yeah.
That's a, yeah, I think that's
a really, really normal worry in a threesome is, something, is my partner gonna observe a difference between the way I interact with this other person and the way I interact with them? Are they going, how are they gonna take that? Are they gonna get jealous? Are they gonna get insulted by it? Are they gonna like start worrying about it? Are they gonna let me even know?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (41:34)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Coach Alex Ray (41:45)
if they do feel some type of way about it, or are they going to hold that in?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (41:47)
Or is it gonna blow
up and be that? Well, no, even in that moment, I think we've all heard the stories. I actually have gotten a lot of compliments about us in three ways, so I'm gonna own that as a badge of honor. But they can get really messy, in the moment messy.
Coach Alex Ray (41:50)
in three years? Like, yeah.
Yes.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (42:09)
Right. And so we didn't we didn't really communicate that, you know, my husband identifies as bi but doesn't have a lot of experience in that space. And just because just like just, you know, just because you're straight doesn't mean that you want to fuck every guy. Right. Just because you're gay doesn't mean you want to fuck every guy. Just because you're like we did. We did not. I think make a space to articulate your choose interests in each other and what was there.
Coach Alex Ray (42:37)
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (42:38)
And so that is it. I would do that differently. Yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (42:42)
Yeah, I love
that we can find a thing that we would do differently and grow. Yeah, I did really appreciate the way that he was able to guide me on things because
Michelle Renee (she/her) (42:47)
⁓ upgrades. Upgrades.
He was kind
of a translator in an interesting way of like, he's a man who's used to my body, right? And he's a man who's used to primarily being with women. But he's still a guy. And he could, I thought, well, don't know what it would have been like if it was just the two of us. I think it still would have went just fine. It just would have been different. ⁓ But it was nice having him there.
Coach Alex Ray (43:28)
Totally, I really liked the moment where you laid down and the two of us were like touching you and I could see somebody that knew your body well and could show me, hey, look, this is, and he didn't even have to use any words. I could just copy what he was doing and put my own spin on it and see, well, what about this? And if.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (43:53)
And you did a really good job
figuring out what he was doing. Because your touch is other than the temperature difference, which was a fun moment where I was like, wow, Alex's hands are really cold and Paul's are like on fire right now. ⁓ Other than that, your touch was so similar, my brain was breaking because it could not track, which it automatically I think it's a really fun thing to experience is just a multi hand massage. So meeting
Coach Alex Ray (43:56)
Yeah.
Right? My freezing cold hands.
Yeah
Michelle Renee (she/her) (44:23)
you know, two people massaging one body or more than two people have been in very big groups of it. ⁓ It's fun to break your brain. It's very enjoyable. That was another moment of like, I'm so, I'm so enjoying this. And I remember you both saying something about you could tell I was really loving it. Like it was very, it's very pleasurable from a sense of pleasure for pleasure sake. I wasn't really getting turned on, but like it felt amazing and I was very giggly and
Coach Alex Ray (44:45)
Yeah.
And I loved that. It was really fun to hear you vocalize the pleasure that you were feeling. Again, it didn't have to be like sexually arousing, which is another thing that I...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (44:58)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it was good.
Coach Alex Ray (45:08)
I wish the gay community understood a lot better that like you can... Sex isn't just one specific thing. There's such a huge spectrum of like, hey, we could just hang out and like touch our bodies in ways that are really pleasurable. And also that doesn't have to mean something other than what it was.
doesn't have to mean that our relationship changes. It doesn't have to, if it's like with a hookup or with a stranger, it doesn't have to mean that we have to see each other again or that we won't see each other again or that we're not interested in more or that we are interested in more. just, it can be what it is and it can be pleasurable. It can be enjoyable, just like cuddling. You know, it was really wonderful to start that experience.
It wasn't the very first thing that we did, but when you said, hey, let's, I want to spoon you, that was wonderful. And it was really just enjoyable to lay there and kind of calm down and connect.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:23)
Yeah, we certainly shared intimacy. Right. We we it may not. I want to say this. It's not just the gay community that struggles with understanding these. Expanded. Oh, my gosh, it's it's all the people. It's all the people. I and I I, know, I generally joke about querying your sex, but that doesn't really you kind of just made that really not work like.
Coach Alex Ray (46:27)
We shared intimacy.
That's my framework. It's all the people. Okay.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (46:55)
I just want an expansive view of what is a possibility. And it doesn't have to be ⁓ centered around orgasms. No orgasms were had yesterday by anybody. No.
Coach Alex Ray (47:10)
and
it was still an enjoyable, what did we say, five hour experience? Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (47:13)
Mm-hmm. Something like that. Yeah.
It was great. And it could have continued if it wasn't time of day and like...
Coach Alex Ray (47:23)
And we were getting fucking hungry.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (47:25)
And I think that you and I just enjoy each other's company so much that it did it like it was almost almost like we needed to have five hours ahead of that to clear out all the things we want to talk about in order to make the space to show up and be focused.
Coach Alex Ray (47:39)
Right? There were times, after we had that little moment of like, wow, we are getting really distracted. There were a couple of moments where I was very proud of myself, where I almost started going on some ADHD rant and went, Alex, self-care, yeah, back to the moment, back to the moment.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (47:42)
It's just like...
self-control.
I had a moment when I was saying something about, you know, love on the spectrum and you're like, yeah, you've told me about that. And I almost was like, oh, let me turn it on and show you right now.
Coach Alex Ray (48:04)
Yeah.
You
Michelle Renee (she/her) (48:13)
you
Coach Alex Ray (48:16)
I would've gotten up and been like, I'm outta here. I give up.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (48:16)
And then I, I, I, I,
internally I'm like, no, Michelle, that is not an appropriate time to do the thing that you're really thinking about right now. You're gonna have to switch, gonna have to switch gears, but it's so hard sometimes, like, ugh.
Coach Alex Ray (48:32)
I like to remind myself it's never just this one thing because in my head I think, it's just this one quick interesting thing to share and it never is because if I'm going to share one interesting thing that is going to spark you to also share one interesting thing which will then spark me to share another.
interesting thing and then an hour has gone by and we've gotten nowhere.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (49:01)
And we're off to the races. Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. And then, and then, and then I think it was also kind of fun in that we thought we were kind of rapping and I went, wait, but you haven't inserted anything into me. Like not a finger, not a penis, nothing. Like I can't have you leave and not say that I've touched like an actual vagina. Like, yeah, you touched my vulva, but that's not the internal, you know, workings. And so, ⁓
Coach Alex Ray (49:04)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah, the closest I
got might've been a tiny bit of tongue tip.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (49:33)
Oh, I was thrilled that you didn't like go into like, try to penetrate me with your tongue, because that is a problem that straight men have, where they think they're gonna fuck me with their tongue. And it's really not my it's not it's not the thing for me. It's like external and soft and slow, like, very cheesy. And instead, they want to like, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh. And I'm like, so, so, pro bravo to you for not doing that. Um, yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (49:58)
Thank you.
I was doing my best to figure out like, I don't know, maybe this will be pleasurable, I don't know. Which is, you know, the funny thing, that we're not in the moment, ⁓ one of the things I always try to remind myself of, and it's very easy to of course remind other people of this, but like, it isn't any different.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (50:04)
You are doing a really lovely job.
Hehe.
Coach Alex Ray (50:30)
to explore something with a guy versus a girl versus like specifically around the fact that like, just because it's a different body part does not mean, sorry, let me back up. Just because it's the same body part that I've interacted with before doesn't mean that that person likes their body part stimulated the same way as the last person. And so,
Michelle Renee (she/her) (50:58)
Mm-hmm.
Coach Alex Ray (51:01)
Stimulating anyone's body is always going to be a different experience unless you know their body well and you've figured out what they like. And so in that way, it's like, why aren't we all just asking people a little bit more, hey, are you enjoying this? Or also, what do you enjoy before you even start? No.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (51:26)
Yeah, my brain just went in a couple different directions with that one because part of what came up for me is like, ⁓ when I used to work in surrogate partner therapy, was like their goal was like, I want to learn how, you know, all the tips and tricks to please a woman. And I'm like, all you'll be learning is the ones that work for me.
Coach Alex Ray (51:44)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (51:49)
And we are all different. Hell, I'm different from day to day. Having sex is not about learning the code.
It's not, it's like, it's not this one thing worked for me today. So I'm going to go run right to that the next day and think that it's going to have the same results. Sex is about finding a space to connect with the other person in another kind of way.
Coach Alex Ray (52:18)
Yeah.
It's a lot of curiosity.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (52:24)
Mm-hmm. And it's fun to get people off. get that. it's, orgasms feel amazing. But you're jumping over a whole bunch of opportunity and steps in connection if that's all you think it is.
Coach Alex Ray (52:31)
huh.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (52:44)
It's like a developmental delay of some sort. Like there's a lack of maturity or something that needs to be kind of explored.
Coach Alex Ray (52:56)
Also, this is like burning in my mind, so I have to say it. For anyone that's been listening thus far and is like, wow, Alex keeps using a lot of gendered language. I'm sorry. It's a lot for my brain right now. Usually I'm so much more careful about like, okay, differentiating bodies from gender. But I realized this when I was describing things to my partner last night. I was like, wow, it's.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (52:59)
Mm-hmm.
Coach Alex Ray (53:25)
For some reason it was difficult for me, think because going back to those norms is almost like a comfort zone of the way to describe things. ⁓ And as I was describing something that was so new and different for me, it was very challenging to be like, right, how about we describe it this other way, Alex? So I just wanted to put that out there and be mindful of that if anyone's like noticing.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (53:51)
Yeah, I know.
It's so easy to fall back into really like binary language and this equals this and that we just it's it's not that way. But it's really easy to especially in like these new situations to fall back into what we were taught initially, how fast it comes forward. This is this goes back to.
Coach Alex Ray (53:57)
Mm-hmm.
No.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (54:16)
why, why, you know, in the Wheel of Consent world, we say that you can't learn something new in a sexual space, you have to learn it outside of the sexual space, because our, our brains will just default into what we know. Because the the the prize is so forward facing, like, we will just forget all this new stuff we're trying to
Coach Alex Ray (54:28)
Hmm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (54:40)
to put into place because we want to get to that thing. We want to ring the bell, do the thing. yeah, thanks for mentioning that.
Coach Alex Ray (54:42)
Hmm
That makes sense.
Yeah, I want to do better.
I want to keep practicing. And I think it will be more natural as the newness wears off. Yeah, I was just noticing.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (55:02)
⁓ Yeah, it was quite an accomplishment.
I just want to like say I think we rocked it.
Coach Alex Ray (55:12)
think we did too.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (55:13)
I couldn't like, I don't want to say I couldn't ask for anything better. It would be very surprising if we had showed up and it just felt like a regular, like heterosexual experience.
Coach Alex Ray (55:27)
Yeah, I would have been real surprised with myself. I would have been like, wow, I really learned something new.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (55:33)
Who am I?
Coach Alex Ray (55:39)
that we'd be like, okay, so Alex is bi, Michelle is still asexual. There we go. But no, I got, I really, I really enjoyed the, I got to have the closest I can to experiencing what sex is like for you in that I was having a sexual experience outside of my orientation. And now I have a little more.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (55:49)
Yeah, no.
Mm-hmm.
Coach Alex Ray (56:09)
a little more understanding and compassion for like, wow, that's gotta be tough.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (56:19)
Yeah, it is. It's hard to not just let go of it and say like, my sex is just too hard. Like, I do enjoy having sex. It just the price of admittance is higher than the the the the price tag doesn't always feel like something I'm interested in in paying, which is a lot a lot of energy and attention and focus, which is something I struggle with anyways.
Coach Alex Ray (56:26)
huh.
Sure.
Mhm.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (56:49)
Right? yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (56:49)
Absolutely.
I think if I just woke up tomorrow and I no longer have arousal leading to desire so quickly around man, then like...
That would be... What was I gonna say? I probably would have way less of a desire or interest in sex, period.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (57:27)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (57:29)
And that would be really like weird and confusing.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (57:35)
Yeah, the why is a hard one to hang on to. Like, I know I want it with my husband because it's a really great connector for us. It's not the only way we connect, but I really enjoy that connection with him. ⁓ That's why picking up extracurricular sex is a lot more complicated to find my why. Right? Because it's not about, it's not, like I've told my husband, if you were into cuck holding or something,
Coach Alex Ray (57:44)
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
Yeah, I can totally understand that.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (58:04)
And I thought, if you got off by me fucking other people, it'd be so much easier for me to find my why. If I get paid, that's another way for me to find my why. ⁓ that's a substantial amount of money that is going to alleviate some kind of burden in my life. And I can show up wholeheartedly in my yes.
Coach Alex Ray (58:11)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Uh-huh.
for sure.
huh.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (58:32)
The why is really clear. I'm not doing something that I ⁓ wouldn't want to do, but it's so much easier to say yes because the exchange is easier for me. The exchange rate is easier for me because if you come into a sexual situation and it's easy for you to have sex, that's not an equal exchange.
Coach Alex Ray (58:35)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
If you're saying if it's easy for one person and not easy for the other person. Yeah, I got that. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (59:07)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and so like money can make that an equalized exchange. Yeah, yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (59:17)
Absolutely. Yeah,
cause otherwise one person leaves going, wow, I had such a, an experience. like, I feel lighter and better after it. And the other one's like, well, I just got used.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (59:24)
You
don't feel that way, but it is like a feeling of, yeah, that was really, I mean, I may have a really nice experience, but the amount of energy it took for me to stay focused and steadfast and like, you know, there's an internal dialogue of like, remember Michelle, as soon as arousal hits, everything will click. But that time between engaging with a person who's already aroused,
Coach Alex Ray (59:39)
Mm-hmm.
huh.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:00:01)
and getting me to the point of the arousal to where it's not in balance anymore, that is an incredible amount of energy. That is the work, is that space, that gap space. And I think anybody at home that is like the, want to want to have sex, but I don't have the want, but I want to want to, will understand that gap.
Coach Alex Ray (1:00:14)
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:00:31)
And I often compare it to having erectile issues in the sense that I don't know if my arousal is going to show up.
Now you can be aroused without an erection, but it's as close as I can ⁓ show an understanding of it's really scary to start a sexual experience not knowing if arousal's gonna show up.
Coach Alex Ray (1:00:46)
Definitely.
Yeah.
Definitely.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:01:00)
Yeah, but we can show that yesterday
we could still have fun. Like. It was fun.
Coach Alex Ray (1:01:03)
Yes. Yeah.
Even worse,
and I think, not even worse, not to compare this, but the word, the, I hate when I think that arousal is gonna show up with someone and then it doesn't. And then my expectations are really, like, I feel very confused because I'm like, I expected to be really aroused, but this is not arousing me at all. And now what?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:01:24)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (1:01:37)
I went in yesterday going, I have no idea how my body is going to respond, so I don't have an expectation of it. Like, of course I'm going to be aroused. So it was great.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:01:50)
Right. But if it's somebody you're supposed to be aroused with, like
maybe you have had great sex before or the anticipation has been building.
Coach Alex Ray (1:01:58)
I was filming a scene with someone
and thought, ⁓ of course. And the anticipation had built for like a couple of weeks and I was like, this is gonna be great. Here's all the things that we're gonna get to like do with this scene. And I find him attractive. And then there was no chemistry to be had. It was like.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:02:03)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Oh, I have a friend like that. I want there to be sexual chemistry so badly. They're a human being I would love to share the space with, like a sexual space with. And I guess we could do something similar to probably how you and I played yesterday of just a fun space to be naked and touch each other, maybe make out. I don't know. But the want is definitely there.
Coach Alex Ray (1:02:26)
⁓
Yeah.
Mhm.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:02:51)
we just don't have it. It's just a thing that we don't have and it's a bummer. It's a bummer. But again, what I really want with this person is closeness, emotional closeness, physical closeness, and I get to have that with him. The sexual component of it was tried a couple of times and I just said, we don't actually need to have that as part of our connection. We can just hang out and cuddle and he's
Coach Alex Ray (1:02:56)
Yeah. Yeah.
you
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:03:21)
such a delightful, like really emotionally in touch with himself, human being that I fucking love spending time with him. In my head though, there is that thing that wouldn't it be even cool if we could have sex? just even once, like, like.
Coach Alex Ray (1:03:36)
Right.
Yeah, wouldn't this be cool
if we were like super turned on right now? ⁓
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:03:43)
I just want to put
that little like extra checkbox. It may be like a one time, like I say this often, and I've said this in the last episode, I'm such a curious sexual. I want to just have that one time, like in check the box and then maybe I never want to do it again. Right? But it's like, it's a bummer that we don't have that, you know? You and I, know we have making out.
Coach Alex Ray (1:03:46)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:04:08)
We have it locked down if we ever are in the mood.
Coach Alex Ray (1:04:09)
we do.
Yes, we can cuddle and make out and we'll be very sad. Yeah, I will be very, very satisfied.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:04:16)
and watch Love on the Spectrum.
Coach Alex Ray (1:04:23)
Definitely. We'll watch them do kissing tutorials and then we'll kiss.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:04:24)
I'll just be like, all right.
No, we kiss way better than Love on the Spectrum does.
Coach Alex Ray (1:04:36)
Probably, but I am so proud of them.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:04:36)
But they got to start somewhere.
No, they have to start somewhere. And I think that's been a lot of my personal, and everybody gets to do their work for different reasons. For me, when I watch Love on the Spectrum, I think, I'm so happy that they're having this experience with their peer. Because as a professional that has been that person for many, many people, it's not balanced, right?
in those scenes, they're both so mutually excited for that moment. And it's not the same for me. And so I feel like it's it's I don't want to be that person for them. I don't want to be that history. And they're like, there's so much I love about being someone's first.
Coach Alex Ray (1:05:11)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:05:27)
You know, we can count all the notches on each other's belt that we took yesterday. I'm so glad. Woo woo. ⁓ I don't want to be that first. It doesn't feel fair.
Coach Alex Ray (1:05:35)
Woohoo!
Yeah, to me the distinction is like romance. Whereas if I get to be somebody's first in a kink scene or something, it's not about the romance, it's about can I give you this psychological or physical experience? And I love that, that delights me. And I also, I think what a qual-
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:05:54)
Very different.
Coach Alex Ray (1:06:10)
I'm happy that I get to give them a quality of experience that if they met with a peer, in their case probably somebody that's not experienced in that thing, it would be awful. They both wouldn't enjoy it very much. But I get to give them this thing like high quality. But if it was like first kiss or I don't know, first time falling in love or something, I would feel a little bit like,
uncomfortable that they are having this strong romantic experience and probably want me to have a similar experience along with them and that's just not what I'm there for. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:06:51)
Yeah.
Yeah, I that does happen in my space. think some in that I mean, I love my clients. I am happy to even tell them I love them, but it's not romantic. It's not that falling in love thing and I hope it's not for my clients either. ⁓ But some of that is out of my control.
Coach Alex Ray (1:07:05)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, I would guess that a lot of clients that you're interacting with haven't necessarily experienced that sense of love that is not necessarily romantic.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:07:36)
That's true. And that's what I, that's my goal is for them to have that experience so that they, their nervous system recognizes it. Yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (1:07:43)
Yeah,
so many people in general are just not familiar with experiencing like friendship love, where they know that there's someone that they care about deeply and that cares about them deeply and is invested in their wellbeing.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:07:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Coach Alex Ray (1:08:08)
we're all, most people are just so used to shallow connections. I someone the other day tell me that he was like, yeah, you know, I have this one friend that goes to therapy and ⁓ we had like a discussion about life and it was like kind of deep and I was like, wow, this has never happened before. This is so cool. And I was like, ⁓
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:08:15)
or
Coach Alex Ray (1:08:37)
What? To me, it's such second nature. I don't have friendships where we don't go deep, where I don't share vulnerably what's happening in my life and vice versa. I've kind of always been like that. So was a good wake up call for me to go, ⁓ yeah, that's different. That's not normal.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:08:39)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, but that's part of
that. I think that's part of the maturity that we all have to go through and we all get there at different times in our life, I think. And so that goes back to like, what is sex to you? If sex is another human masturbation sleep, you've still got work to do. You know what I mean? Like there's more. And if like I think about a...
old client that loves the vulnerable conversations of like the we're not really stranger cards, or he would always be picking up new decks and bringing them to our sessions, because he loved the opportunity to get deeper, but didn't really know how to start that without the prompt. That's okay. It's a muscle that has to be practiced. so like, in our space together yesterday, me saying, Okay, I need to tell you the story that I'm
Coach Alex Ray (1:09:41)
you
Yeah, absolutely.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:10:00)
that I'm making right now is that I'm afraid that I'm going to ruin this experience for you or something like that. That is the practice of having that muscle built where I know I can say the thing because I know I will be okay. And it becomes a drive to say the thing because I can't hold it inside of me because I know it doesn't do me any good to not share it.
Sharing it lets you know where I'm at. And then you're like, ⁓ let me alleviate that fear for you. Or it gives you something to meet me in. If you hold it all to yourself, you're missing out on that reciprocity of the share.
Coach Alex Ray (1:10:32)
Yeah
You
Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:10:51)
Yeah.
Coach Alex Ray (1:10:54)
Well, what else is important for us to like share with people here?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:11:01)
I think we've covered enough of it. Like, I think...
Coach Alex Ray (1:11:04)
Think so too.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:11:08)
I don't know if this is a template for anybody out there.
Coach Alex Ray (1:11:14)
If they want more details about the template, we'd be happy to work with them. Yeah. Yes. We can take you through it. Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:11:18)
You can us for a consult and we will answer all your questions. I would do that. Yeah.
I think this is a fun, I can't wait to be in social space with you again and be like, now we've hooked up. Let that make your mind wander. What the hell is Brittany gonna stay? That's my question.
Coach Alex Ray (1:11:35)
I know.
I can't
wait to hear what she has to say about it. I think it's so entertaining to share, and I'm glad, I think you're on the same page based on what you just said, but I think it's very entertaining to put it out there without all the details and let people think whatever they want because I don't care really what they imagine up. It doesn't matter whether it actually happened or not, what they think happened. And I think it's kind of funny.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:11:52)
Mm-hmm.
Coach Alex Ray (1:12:15)
that way to just like play with people. But I'm glad that here we got to share some details of like specific logistically actually what happened and it was a very enjoyable experience. I did.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:12:16)
Yeah.
And you learn new shit, like you got new experiences.
Some things are not as nearly mysterious as they were 24 hours ago.
Coach Alex Ray (1:12:36)
Yeah. Are you not?
Exactly. You know what else I was really proud of? When you said, ⁓ yeah, you're hitting my G-spot now and it feels good. And I was like, gay man, a gay on their first time hits the G-spot? What are these straight men doing? Honestly, what the fuck you all?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:12:45)
Hmm.
⁓
No, seriously.
Well,
no, we communicated. That's the difference.
Coach Alex Ray (1:13:04)
⁓ is that what it is?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:13:06)
You were not flying blind to my dear. Right. But if you can't talk, yeah, but if you can't talk and give your partner directions, because sometimes the partner doesn't want to hear directions. I've literally heard people tell me that they have had partners that say, no, that's not what you want. This is what you
Coach Alex Ray (1:13:09)
No I was not! Absolutely. No, there was a lot of communication, but...
Right.
That makes me so angry to hear.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:13:31)
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So again, everybody is different and you need to communicate what you need. And it's also like you have my husband in the room going, this is the map to find the spot, right? Like,
Coach Alex Ray (1:13:46)
Yes.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:13:48)
I told a story about my old partner and how I overheard him one time giving directions to my G-spot to somebody. And I was like, that's really fascinating. I don't even know how to get to my own G-spot, right? I didn't realize you had to take a left at the light, right? So yeah, that actually the whole, you should definitely make sure that you digitally penetrate me before we wrap this up, just to say that you've been inside of me.
Coach Alex Ray (1:13:59)
Right.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:14:16)
And then I was like, oh, actually that feels really nice.
Coach Alex Ray (1:14:18)
Yeah, I was like, yay, I'm able to like give you physical pleasure in that moment. And that was cool. And I was also like, this is so stupid that this is a common thing for women to not experience, for vulva owners to not experience pleasure. What the hell are partners doing not communicating like this?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:14:43)
It's not,
it's also the fact that as somebody, if you're born in socialized female, part of that is that we don't interact with our vulvas. It's not like having a penis that is like an external appendage that you have to hold to pee and all these things. It is so common for somebody that has a vulva to never have looked at it.
Coach Alex Ray (1:14:58)
you
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:15:12)
let alone understand how it works and what they need for their own pleasure. Masturbation is frowned upon. How are you going to know what you like if you're not figuring that out for yourself? It's not just on the partner. It's societally a problem. That's normalizing masturbation and self-exploration and communication, like talk.
Coach Alex Ray (1:15:30)
Yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:15:39)
with your mouth using words in the moment of sexual activity, like, I just, we have a long ways to go. We just happen to be the people that already know how to do those things. And so even a gay man can find the G-spot with given directions.
Coach Alex Ray (1:16:01)
Exactly. And if everyone was like, hey, let's just take a smidgen of education. How long did that take? Five minutes.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:16:14)
I mean, how many people can break out a 3D vulva model and like watch YouTube?
Coach Alex Ray (1:16:20)
That's also true.
But like, I feel like if more adults were just taking just even one sex ed class as adults to like learn about volvas and penises and prostates and how to, like what they look like on the inside and how to find certain things.
my gosh, the world would be having so much more pleasure. And it was also the point that you brought up. It was sad. I had that thought driving home of like, it's sad to me because I've heard that so many people with vulvas are not used to touching inside themselves or even like looking at themselves in the mirror. And I thought that's so sad to me.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:16:52)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Coach Alex Ray (1:17:18)
because what a cool body part to have.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:17:22)
Thank you for saying that. Yeah, I was so afraid I was gonna, it was gonna scare you.
Coach Alex Ray (1:17:24)
Yeah.
No, there's so much detail and intricacy in a vulva. Like, it's awesome. If I had one, my fingers would be in there like half the day. I'd be just fishing around seeing what's there, you know?
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:17:36)
Yeah.
I think it was super
cool that you could identify mine on the wall. have these three pictures that are like kind of abstract already of vulvas and we were like, can you guess which one is mine? And you were able to identify it.
Coach Alex Ray (1:17:50)
Mm-hmm
I got so ner- I was like, the first- I was like, I think the middle one, but what if I get this wrong? I got all nervous about it.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:18:03)
Who
would have cared? But like, it was kind of fun that you figured that you nailed it. was good. I they're very, I know all three of those vulvas and they are very different. So I don't really know one of them like intimately, but yes.
Coach Alex Ray (1:18:08)
yeah.
And that's
That's another super cool thing. Like the differences that you can have. Penis owners, there's not much of a difference in penises. We just, they're.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:18:26)
⁓ think penises are no, I think they're
all so very different. I really do. And maybe it's because I have an appreciation for how different vulvas are that I do see. I mean, I think I used to not see penises as being so different. So it might have to do with just my exposure to vulvas. But ⁓ I think they're all so very different.
Coach Alex Ray (1:18:39)
Maybe.
I think.
based on my limited experience, substantial penis experience, ⁓ there's more, on the immediate surface glance, there's more difference with a vulva than with a penis. But if you were to pause and really look closer, there's so many intricate details. Everybody has so many different things.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:18:58)
I'm sorry.
I'll agree.
Coach Alex Ray (1:19:25)
Maybe it's just because seeing a vulva is new to me that I'm like, wait, well that one looks very different from that one, which looks very different from that one to me. But maybe if I saw a thousand of them, I'd be like, no, there's a lot of similarities.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:19:35)
that. Now,
I think, I don't know, I think it's a frame of mind. I just think that we have a society that has started to like, well, the porn industry is a bit notorious for like, really having a mono kind of mono version, like one version of a vulva, which is, which is really like, thanks to labiaplasty and
Coach Alex Ray (1:19:43)
Yeah.
Yah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:20:03)
vulva, vaginal plastic, whatever it is. Like we've had this like, this is the way a vulva is supposed to look. And so
Coach Alex Ray (1:20:12)
Which like,
has anyone ever been born with one that looks like what- what-
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:20:15)
Like a Barbie,
like a Barbie foma. I just, take a very different stance that they're all incredibly different and they're all beautiful. And I've seen a lot of them thanks to being able to do some workshops around this stuff that they're all just different. That doesn't make them not beautiful. They're just fascinatingly different.
Coach Alex Ray (1:20:44)
Yeah, just like bodies in general are so fascinatingly different. So many cool little details you can find when you slow down and like explore someone's body. It's really neat.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:20:57)
This man is saying I need to go. He's like, that's enough time, I've been patient. No more. All right.
Coach Alex Ray (1:21:02)
Right?
He's like, my turn. Feed me, walk
me, love me.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:21:12)
Yeah, I love you. Thanks for the experiment. Thanks for inviting me as an option of an expir... Well, you didn't really just said, you said your thing out loud that you were interested in and I jumped on it. That sounds not accurate, but...
Coach Alex Ray (1:21:13)
I love you too. Thank you ⁓
Yeah.
I'm really glad we had this experience together. It was enjoyable. I learned a lot and I did not leave afraid. I left feeling just a lot of joy and a lot of...
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:21:35)
No, ⁓
Coach Alex Ray (1:21:47)
like lighter, lighthearted and free. So thank you. Now we have a really cool thing.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:21:51)
Yeah, and now we have this thing.
Another fun story for our repertoire. Yeah. Well, thanks for listening at home. My brain's like, should this just be a special offer that only goes out to people that ask for it? Like they can have it as a freemium download or something. I don't know. Anyways, it'll probably just go out in the regular method, but too lazy to set shit up, but.
Coach Alex Ray (1:21:58)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, seriously.
You
Ugh, exhausting,
yeah.
Michelle Renee (she/her) (1:22:19)
Anyways,
I look forward to ⁓ hearing how this one lands in your world, in my world, in podcast world. Yeah. All right. Love you. Bye.
Coach Alex Ray (1:22:25)
Me too.
We're about to find out.
Alright, love you. Bye!
